It's hard to tell with constantly changing seniority numbers, but the bottom hire on the merged list is #11055 or so, for the purposes of the snapshot.

There would have to be openings below that for an LUA to get the 787.

And since this is APC, a good old conspiracy theory should be tossed. Latest manning summary shows zero change to the plan to shove all future sparkie flying into IAH by mid 2016. So the staffing continues to significantly grow on the West Coast despite no additional flying. Never seen that before. Clearly the number of CAL guys willing to commute to WB reserve is running out. Curious...

There were openings below that. 11 in SFO alone. Those pilots are post-merger hires. It was a mistake on the snapshot.

Maybe the MEC should look at this and see if any LUAL pilots were passed over because of this in prior bids. Could mean a money award.

Forgive my ignorance, but I thought that LUAL Pilots were fenced off until #25 got on property. I wasn't aware that there was a contingency built in based off of post-merger hires getting 787.

The ISL award only applied to the pilots on property then. If a vacancy goes unfilled with pilots from the respective side (sUAL for the 747 or sCAL for the 787) the remaining vacancies for that bid can go to anyone in seniority order.

It doesn't "drop the fence" it just allows the remaining slots on a particular bid to go to the other side for those vacancies. Since everyone hired after the SLI wasn't S-anything, it doesn't really apply other than in seniority order. In Nov/Dec when we get number 25 all fleets/seats are system-wide seniority awards. What's going to be interesting is how it's handled for bids that have an effective date after the sheduled delivery of number 25 but closes before it's actually on property.

Answered in prior post.

Great explanation. Yes LUAL pilots can fly the 787 before the fence falls, but only after it goes unfilled by LCAL pilots not bidding it.

The language in the Award is straightforward as I read it. It uses the term "can be awarded" and "delivered". It doesn't say anything about effective date. So it looks like #25 has to be "delivered" before a vacancy "can be awarded". So in theory, there could be a bid that closes the day before #25 arrives and no LUAL pilots will be awarded a vacancy, unless of course it goes unfilled on the LCAL list, like it appears might happen on this bid.

I was just going by how some interpret "can be awarded". The award has an effective date. I know many who feel that "awarded" is the effective date since it's published as such. I can see their point that if the award is for a date after number 25 is on property, why were they not allowed to bid it? Already been discussed in length on the ALPA board.

It's spelled right there in the bid.

VACANCY AWARD Snapshot EFFECTIVE 9/29/2015 (October Bid Month)

Vacancy Award is Effective for October. If the bid says the Award is Effective for December and number 25 comes in November. The ISL doesn't say date published. It says awarded. If an award isn't effective until after 25 arrives, it should be open to all. Just saying it's going to be interesting.

So how do we know for sure #25 is really coming? What if a pilot gets a bid awarded because of a Jan 1 "Effective date" and then there is a problem on the 787 line and they stop producing them for a year and we only have 23 on property, but guys have been trained.

Can anyone explain in a concise way that's easy for new guy to understand how this "new" 756 bid for SFO/ORD is supposed to work? I read it to mean UA needs 30 more positions on top of what they already have staffed in the 76T at each of those locations...but I guess it's more complicated than that.

More specifically I mean, aren't all the 76T folks just going to be converted to the 756 in general? I guess it has something to do with only 50% can be forced to and the rest need to bid 756 if they want to stay there? IF that's the case, then this vacancy bid could possibly, in effect, have no vacancies at all since 30 current 76T people could just bid over to the 756? And then there would be no back-fills to the 76T since it is "closed." Some 76T folks are showing up on the 756 bid on snap 1. This just seems to skew the numbers and I'm thoroughly confused...which is easy to do I guess.

It's "new" because there is only a 76T base in ORD and SFO. The 76T fleet is going away. All the planes are being converted to "756". They need the lift with those planes so they're starting to staff it. In theory yes all could come from the 76T fleet, but it's an open bid so those awards are strickly by seniority. They won't be backfilling to the 76T no. It's a dead fleet. You can't even bump to it if you're displaced. The more 76T pilots who bid the 756 the less the company needs to involuntarily BAT over later.

Another nice thing about it being a new category is that it ignores training freezes so basically anyone can get awarded if their seniority holds it.

Hope that helps.

Argh, Snapshot 2 "posting delayed". Something to do with the 787 stuff discussed I assume?

I'm sure, our IT company with wings. Sigh

Yes, it does, but let me see if I get this then...from the company perspective, it would be better for all the 76T people to bid 756. Is this a correct simplified assumption?

Yes. It would save them a ton in training costs since it's only a few days differences training to go between the fleets.

Well he11 yes. If there are insufficient bidders, than pre-merger UAL guys get first dibs on 787 vacancies. HA. Did you think that newbies would get 787 slots ahead of pre-merger pilots? Personally, I would rather huff paint than throw gear on Sparky the scab wagon (not because of the AC, just the captains), but that's just me. ;)

''.........................

That's not true.

???

6. Should there be insufficient bidders from one premerger pilot group for any position in the allocated group of positions under paragraph 5 above, the filling of the position will be governed by the ISL. A pilot thereby awarded a position will, for purposes of processing future displacements under the collective bargaining agreement,
be considered as junior to all pilots from the premerger pilot group entitled to the position. Notwithstanding the awarding of positions pursuant to this insufficient bidders provision, the restrictions set out in paragraph 5 above shall continue to apply during the terms specified in paragraph 5 above.

You need to look at the big picture. We have 13 787 deliveries in less than twelve month. The next 8 are initially (temporarily) going to IAH. On paper, IAH has a lot of 787 pilots. In reality, many are 737 Captains that need to be trained. I doubt the company can train them, plus additional displacements, in time to cover the new IAH flying. Reason being, the system can't afford to lose that many 737 captains overnight. New capt's in other bases must be trained first. So, there will be a lag in training the Iah 787 fo's. The slack will be picked up by SFO and lax. Notice that they are only asking for 5 new 787 IAh Capts on this bid. IAH can't cover the flying.

Why not just open more vacancies in IAh? Because, long term, they don't plan to run that many 787 routes out of Iah. What you will see is the staffing adjust to the amount of displaced 737 Captains in IAH. Figure another 40 go to 787 FO. Now you have enough crews in Iah to cover an additional 3 routes over what is there today. So, dh SFO crews to IAH and/or create W trips and have them cover the temporary staffing issue. Sometime next year they will open up additional flying in SFO and reduce some of the flying in IAH. When their happens they will not have surplus crews in IAH and SFO will have the staffing to handle the additional flying.

I think you are on drugs. There are too many IAH 737 Capts. The sooner they get on the 787, the better, according to Howie. Not me.

So they are going to gut the IAH 777 flying and replace it with Sparkie then promptly reduce the Sparkie flying all within 12-18 months? I think I see why the phrase "the big picture" invokes eye rolls industry wide.

Huge IAH 777 bump coming down the road? LOL. You heard it hear first. Just kidding, but NOTHING would surprise me.

Any reason why this vacancy is having issues putting out snapshots?


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having issues with Fences is what i've heard… but could be the same IT department issues we've been having.

A little fencing reason

It's out finally. Looks like a fence thing as advertised.


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New snapshot is out and quite a few sUAL 787 FO awards. And LAX went way senior.

But who wants to fly with a bunch of filthy scabs?

I guess it's easy to look out the right window when you're bidding in the top 10% lol. Hell the top one can hold CA on Sparky. Maybe he just wanted to get to the plane before he bid CA in a couple months? Once we're in the left seat we get to fly with our favorite ******* every trip! :D

If the snaphshot is awarded the way it is now in SFO 4 of the top 6 FOs and 10 of the top 20 FOs will be LUAL pilots.

I was talking more about LAX. I have over 20 yrs with UAL and I couldn't hold FO on the snapshot as sUAL!

http://www.stephandtonyinvestigate.c...oo-300x199.jpgOne can always operate with a pile of fecal matter and find their prize.

Not me. I ain't pulling gear for those POS mf. But seniority rules baby. And be it 737s or 787s...The UAL boys are gonna take full advantage of this merger. Isn't it great?

It sure is. And with our increasingly unified pilot group, it will also be great when we are again begging for pennies on the dollar on the retro pay in 2020.

why worry about that? GET SOME. Get all you can get while you can get it!

Aren't you the guy that was saying he would vote yes for the Delta TA?

good to see 787 opportunities before the 25th aircraft delivery… I'm willing to bet some of the more junior LCAL pilots dropping the 787 bids now that they see way senior LUAL pilots coming on board… as they will constantly get pushed down the G-Line with every new equipment bid from now on…

Are you sure? Is the fence still up i.e. if there is another bid with say 5 vacancies would it be open to all via seniority or does Lcal still have preference? Or is the fence just flattened, and hauled off once 1 Lual pilot is awarded it?

Does the 747 fence stay up then or not?