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Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2005970)
I say we swing for the fence whether it be this month or in Sect 6. We're already getting two raises the next two years. They can buy new planes today, nothing in our agreement prevents that. That's a giant shiny red herring with wings purely designed to sway the voters on the bottom third, hell maybe even bottom quarter of the Sen list. We give them an extension for a few shekels now, they'll drag their feet forever on the next one. I smell a rat.
When have they EVER come to us with hat in hand? Remember "On Top, On Time"?? Remember what they did to us TWICE in bankruptcy. Different players, sure. But the same mindset. AA and USAir, the last two holdouts on PBS, now get to "enjoy" PBS. These guys never let up. We always do. I don't like the company either, but we need to not forget who was to blame for our 9 years at the bottom of the industry. We are. We voted for the contracts, and our elected leadership scammed us as well. |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2005959)
I think some are underestimating what the company will want in exchange for some cash now and some planes later.
Along with relaxation in the long haul duty day, I smell TWO pilots doing EU flying from both EWR and IAD. After all, that how it was done at LCAL and today's UA resembles LCAL more than it does LUAL. After all, we will have relaxed our position on fatigue issues. And if they could secure that, forget about upgrades for several years. They would instantly be overstaffed. They'll come in with a long wish list and we'll beat our chests and make them capitulate on one or two so we can assuage our "brain surgeon" egos and talk tough in ops, but we'll eventually agree to the rest. And since those the items they REALLY wanted anyway, they win. Again. I would also expect them attempt to significantly dilute profit sharing. Its been said here forever, they think long term while we think about next year. We are truly our own worst enemies. For example, I laugh now when I read all the complaining about reserve abuse when we HANDED it to them in the current agreement because of how well we were played during the whipsaw days. And in a few years, after we've given away work rules and QOL items (in exchange for an increase in hourly pay), they'll come after the "cushy" hourly rates (which WE paid for) during the next economic downturn. Why? "because we gotta save the company!" Pessimistic as always, James. James, I can see two pilots on the Irish runs… but further East will be a stretch… with the 90 minute reports and 7.5+ flight times it will exceed the FARs won't it for two pilots? Russ |
Probe,
I agree with some of what you say, but the company and the banks held all the cards and ran the whole show. Did you watch the Frontline video? There were plenty of shenanigans coming out of Chicago, and I don't mean ALPA. $3.3 Billion in employee concessions wasn't enough for them. We were duped. Especially the second whack and the "sacred" pensions. Watch The Full Program Online | Can You Afford To Retire? | FRONTLINE | PBS Uglee, I'm not sure exactly how far they can go. Perhaps some LCAL guys can fill us in on how far they went with just two pre merge. |
Originally Posted by ugleeual
(Post 2006114)
James, I can see two pilots on the Irish runs… but further East will be a stretch… with the 90 minute reports and 7.5+ flight times it will exceed the FARs won't it for two pilots?
Russ Nothing we won't be able to waive through FRMS. When we give them an inch, they've already laid the groundwork to take the extra mile. Remember the arm twisting they made to get us to change the language that eventually allowed them to do the IAD-MAD flying with Aer Lingus? Lesson learned - they will take anything they have and use it in the most beneficial way for them (even/especially if it's harmful to the pilot group). |
Originally Posted by AxlF16
(Post 2005710)
Presumably they will still need whatever they are seeking now. They need something badly enough that they are (allegedly...) willing to spend money early. We can either cash in that leverage on a few items now or try to use it to prod them into an agreement on the full CBA during Sec6 later...and hope the leverage still exists. The one thing we can be sure of is that if we cash in now, that 'leverage' won't exist in the future -- we'll be hoping additional leverage materializes.
I'm not necessarily against these negotiations, but I see absolutely ZERO reason to entertain ANY concession. We are in growth mode - nearly every one of us has the opportunity to make additional money with an upgrade. We all have two 3% raises coming over the next 15 months. A growing number of pilots are in their first 12 years and are thus getting pay raises each year. It's not like the stagnant post 9/11 era! If we can't resist selling pieces of our contract NOW, then we are hopeless. Edit add: When/If I have the opportunity to vote on a TA from this negotiation, I will make my decision based on several considerations. My assumptions are: - If we vote 'No', we will enter Sec6 as previously planned - The leverage that exists today will most likely still exist when Sec6 negotiations begin - Voting 'Yes' will extend Sec6 negotiations by ~1-2 years (on top of the extension + estimated 3 yr process) - meaning no new CBA until ~2022'ish' - The company will use whatever changes we allow in the most harmful way possible to the pilot group (worse than any scenario I can predict) Given the above, I will look very closely at the things that are NOT being addressed in the negotiation and subsequent TA. Am I willing to wait 6+ years (vs 1-3) for improvements in these things? I'm going to go back through the materials we were provided when we voted on our current CBA for a full explanation of all sections. Off the top of my cranium I can think of Sick Leave, Vacation Credit per day, Training Credit per day, Reassignment rules, etc... I also expect ALPA to explain WHAT the company wanted, WHY they wanted it so quickly, and HOW badly they want it. IOW, I want a feel for the nature and amount of leverage we really have. This should be easy to explain, and any obfuscation will make me VERY wary. Without a solid understanding of the companies desires and our leverage I will vote NO. Finally I'll consider the merits of the TA. In short, are we extracting the maximum benefit from the leverage we have and from the modifications we agree to make. If this isn't a slam dunk then I'm voting NO. It's worth noting that I need to do a lot of study, research, and discussion about FRMS & MOU22, and the impacts of their modifications. That has begun. I view this process the same as the old saying "I refuse to belong to any club that would have me as a member". Honestly, I expect to be thoroughly underwhelmed by whatever proposal the company pushes across the table. Take your best guess and divide by 3. I just don't think they have it in them to offer enough compensation to get my attention. The catch 22 is that the more money they offer, the more suspicious I'll be that they are pulling something over on us. My concerns as well, if the company throws money at us, we are stuck with the other parts of the contract that still need fixing till the next cycle. It's going to have to be eye watering to compensate for those issues not addressed this time around. And, if we do not come to agreement, we still can go through regular openers, and presumably still have the leverage over what they want, only more so because time has past, and it has value. |
Originally Posted by oldmako
(Post 2005970)
AA and USAir, the last two holdouts on PBS, now get to "enjoy" PBS. These guys never let up. We always do. SWA hasn't been sucked in, |
Originally Posted by BMEP100
(Post 2006373)
SWA hasn't been sucked in,
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Originally Posted by BMEP100
(Post 2006373)
SWA hasn't been sucked in,
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This entire extension is just a delay tactic by the company or it is their way of getting our contract amendable date out of sync with Delta
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I have been thinking about this thread. SWA has been in Section 6 since 2012. Several others are prior to 2010. Who has the leverage here? The minute that we go past the amendable date of the contract, all the leverage is in the hands of the companies. Eventually, we cave on a substandard contract because we are tired of being underpaid.
Pilots lose in contract negotiations. Period. |
Past the amenable date I can't help but think there's subtle unorganized loss of enthusiasm on the part of many. Not a formal or organized withdrawal of enthusiasm, but just less anxious to carry the company water. I think it's enough to show in the metrics and I'd hope it is part of the motivation for the company to negotiate.
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Originally Posted by APC225
(Post 2007579)
Past the amenable date I can't help but think there's subtle unorganized loss of enthusiasm on the part of many. Not a formal or organized withdrawal of enthusiasm, but just less anxious to carry the company water. I think it's enough to show in the metrics and I'd hope it is part of the motivation for the company to negotiate.
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Agree. It feels like a constant tipping point. They still can't get our pay right and so many other constant irritants. There hasn't been what felt like a smooth patch since the merger. It feels like we're in the endgame and we haven't even started yet.
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Originally Posted by baseball
(Post 2007605)
Right. But, for me...I already have a loss of enthusiasm. This entire operation just sucks the life out of me. I feel like I have to do too many people's jobs. Load Plan, dispatch, scheduling, CCO times, irregular operations, maintenance bafoonery, aircraft servicing, etc. This entire operation hinges on pilots taking up everyone's slack the entire time the aircraft is on the ground. And we do this while fighting windmills and having to put up with petty "why did the CA add fuel" crapp, and then we've got to continually re-learn our jobs because we can't just stick with a standardized way of operating. It's the Yo-Yo effect every other month. It takes me forever to read up on all these pilot bulletins. Most of them are stupid and don't make us better or more efficient.
That sounds exhausting. I've been sitting at home for 6 days. RSV is fat in DEN. Guarantee when/if they do call, I won't be doing anybody's job but my own. ;) Who says RSV sucks??!! |
Originally Posted by jsled
(Post 2007665)
That sounds exhausting. I've been sitting at home for 6 days. RSV is fat in DEN. Guarantee when/if they do call, I won't be doing anybody's job but my own. ;) Who says RSV sucks??!!
Haven't landed since Aug, or been to work since first week of Sept..... LOVE RSV.... A LOT of Trips given for OE, and buying trips to consolidate... My yard looks good, and my kids are loving it! |
Originally Posted by Short Bus Drive
(Post 2007681)
LIKE!!!
Haven't landed since Aug, or been to work since first week of Sept..... LOVE RSV.... A LOT of Trips given for OE, and buying trips to consolidate... My yard looks good, and my kids are loving it! |
Originally Posted by jsled
(Post 2007715)
Awesome. Good to hear!
But, hold the SC's and FSB's please. |
Those other people dont get paid enough to bother doing it.
Originally Posted by baseball
(Post 2007605)
Right. But, for me...I already have a loss of enthusiasm. This entire operation just sucks the life out of me. I feel like I have to do too many people's jobs. Load Plan, dispatch, scheduling, CCO times, irregular operations, maintenance bafoonery, aircraft servicing, etc. This entire operation hinges on pilots taking up everyone's slack the entire time the aircraft is on the ground. And we do this while fighting windmills and having to put up with petty "why did the CA add fuel" crapp, and then we've got to continually re-learn our jobs because we can't just stick with a standardized way of operating. It's the Yo-Yo effect every other month. It takes me forever to read up on all these pilot bulletins. Most of them are stupid and don't make us better or more efficient.
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Baseball got me tired out by just reading the post.
Why did the Captain add fuel? Because he/she can. Any more questions? When they added that memo to the FP one of my F/Os complained to me about it. As I was adding fuel I said, "So what it won't change my thinking one bit. " His reply, "It will some." |
Originally Posted by Regularguy
(Post 2008368)
Baseball got me tired out by just reading the post.
Why did the Captain add fuel? Because he/she can. Any more questions? When they added that memo to the FP one of my F/Os complained to me about it. As I was adding fuel I said, "So what it won't change my thinking one bit. " His reply, "It will some." |
Originally Posted by baseball
(Post 2007605)
Right. But, for me...I already have a loss of enthusiasm. This entire operation just sucks the life out of me. I feel like I have to do too many people's jobs. Load Plan, dispatch, scheduling, CCO times, irregular operations, maintenance bafoonery, aircraft servicing, etc. This entire operation hinges on pilots taking up everyone's slack the entire time the aircraft is on the ground. And we do this while fighting windmills and having to put up with petty "why did the CA add fuel" crapp, and then we've got to continually re-learn our jobs because we can't just stick with a standardized way of operating. It's the Yo-Yo effect every other month. It takes me forever to read up on all these pilot bulletins. Most of them are stupid and don't make us better or more efficient.
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Originally Posted by CLazarus
(Post 2008879)
Wow, crazy how people can have totally different perspectives on the same things. I've seen and dealt with a lot of the same stuff since coming onboard, but it pales in comparison to what I had to deal with in the USAF. Most of what you point out is the direct effect of dealing with other fallible human beings. I'd love perfection from those around me, but I'm told I make mistakes too. My stress level is a fraction of what it used to be, so I guess these sorts of things just bounce off me for now. I know things can go bad for me pretty quick in this industry. However, I hope things improve around here for you or your perspective changes for the better.
Aside from that - thank you for your service and Happy Veteren's Day :) |
Originally Posted by CLazarus
(Post 2008879)
Wow, crazy how people can have totally different perspectives on the same things. I've seen and dealt with a lot of the same stuff since coming onboard, but it pales in comparison to what I had to deal with in the USAF. Most of what you point out is the direct effect of dealing with other fallible human beings. I'd love perfection from those around me, but I'm told I make mistakes too. My stress level is a fraction of what it used to be, so I guess these sorts of things just bounce off me for now. I know things can go bad for me pretty quick in this industry. However, I hope things improve around here for you or your perspective changes for the better.
Another thing. we don't know if the philosophy gives birth to the procedure or if the procedure gives birth to the philosophy. We come up with pilot bulletins to manage the operation and we keep yo-yo-ing all over the place. There is nothing SOP about our SOP's. The airline is too disjointed, too disconnected and is like a helicopter. It has too many moving parts and if the wind isn't blowing right the balls can't all stay in the air. |
Originally Posted by jsled
(Post 2007665)
That sounds exhausting. I've been sitting at home for 6 days. RSV is fat in DEN. Guarantee when/if they do call, I won't be doing anybody's job but my own. ;) Who says RSV sucks??!!
But, last trip.....ugh. delayed about 9 hours. Then, fueler didn't know how to fuel the airplane. Couldn't understand why we need to schedule wing tanks full then put the rest in the center tank. Had to get on a conference call with TOMC, MX, and Load Planning to teach everyone how we fuel a B757. Normally, I just check my totalizer, but now I scrutinize things pretty close. |
[QUOTE=Shrek;2008904]I would like for you to save this post and look at it again in 10 years. :eek:
If in the next 10 years I go through what Part 121 guys have been through in the last fifteen, I'm sure my perspective would be dark and twisted to say the least.
Originally Posted by baseball
(Post 2008921)
I understand. But, here's the deal. We're sort of stuck in a rut right now. We have a severe lack of leadership at the airline.....The airline is too disjointed, too disconnected and is like a helicopter. It has too many moving parts and if the wind isn't blowing right the balls can't all stay in the air.
P.S. - If you ever are feeling down, spend some time reading the Allegiant threads. The most profitable airline in the world, but their pilots make squat, have horrible work rules, and probably another couple of years before they get a half-decent contract because their management has no interest in reaching a deal. I pray to Saint Gordon that the leadership here improves.... or at least doesn't come over from Allegiant. |
Originally Posted by baseball
(Post 2008921)
I understand. But, here's the deal. We're sort of stuck in a rut right now. We have a severe lack of leadership at the airline. Since the merger began we haven't had any leadership. In this airline, Flight Ops doesn't wear the pants. Bean counters, legal, and HR run the airline. After that it's marketing.
Another thing. we don't know if the philosophy gives birth to the procedure or if the procedure gives birth to the philosophy. We come up with pilot bulletins to manage the operation and we keep yo-yo-ing all over the place. There is nothing SOP about our SOP's. The airline is too disjointed, too disconnected and is like a helicopter. It has too many moving parts and if the wind isn't blowing right the balls can't all stay in the air. Honestly, I don't know if it's the start of an improvement in our operational performance or just a one off, but we had some really great folks doing some really great work. And the response from our customers was overwhelming. I know, I know. I'll be labeled a Marvin by some. But after watching us fail for so long it was nice to have a win for a change. |
It may be just be a coincidence or not, but look at our performance from the date Jeff left till today. In every measurable statistic we have seen drastic operational improvements. Sure the weather has improved and the block hours are down from peak of summer. So either all the stuff they say they had going on to improve things are finally in place, or just a complete fluke. Well see when the first snow storm hits what happens.
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Originally Posted by gettinbumped
(Post 2009042)
It has been a LONG and painful 5 years, that's for sure. But I caught a glimmer of hope last night. Arrived at the airplane to a small maintenance issue which turned into a much larger maintenance issue after discovering it was not deferrable. Up against a curfew restriction, there were a LOT of moving parts that needed to work seemlessly in order to have a chance to make it, and I honestly figured we had no chance. The mechanic was simply awesome. My FO proved himself to be a truly great hire. Awesome suggestions, stepped in to help whenever he could in whatever capacity was needed. The flight attendants despite a LONG day were really upbeat and exceptional. The CSR's were fantastic, as it involved deplaning the entire jet and reboarding in a ridiculously short time. Everyone from dispatch to LP to customer service to ramp and especially maintenance was hustling and doing what they needed to do to get the plane out in time: and it worked. Landed with 8 minutes to spare.
Honestly, I don't know if it's the start of an improvement in our operational performance or just a one off, but we had some really great folks doing some really great work. And the response from our customers was overwhelming. I know, I know. I'll be labeled a Marvin by some. But after watching us fail for so long it was nice to have a win for a change. |
Originally Posted by gettinbumped
(Post 2009042)
It has been a LONG and painful 5 years, that's for sure. But I caught a glimmer of hope last night. Arrived at the airplane to a small maintenance issue which turned into a much larger maintenance issue after discovering it was not deferrable. Up against a curfew restriction, there were a LOT of moving parts that needed to work seemlessly in order to have a chance to make it, and I honestly figured we had no chance. The mechanic was simply awesome. My FO proved himself to be a truly great hire. Awesome suggestions, stepped in to help whenever he could in whatever capacity was needed. The flight attendants despite a LONG day were really upbeat and exceptional. The CSR's were fantastic, as it involved deplaning the entire jet and reboarding in a ridiculously short time. Everyone from dispatch to LP to customer service to ramp and especially maintenance was hustling and doing what they needed to do to get the plane out in time: and it worked. Landed with 8 minutes to spare.
Honestly, I don't know if it's the start of an improvement in our operational performance or just a one off, but we had some really great folks doing some really great work. And the response from our customers was overwhelming. I know, I know. I'll be labeled a Marvin by some. But after watching us fail for so long it was nice to have a win for a change. Nice job, "C"aptain! |
Originally Posted by Lerxst
(Post 2009126)
But the more important question is.... Were you wearing your hat whilst doing all this?!? :D:D
Nice job, "C"aptain! |
Hey Marvin ;) it is a welcome change when it occurs. I find myself asking afterwards "did that really just happen?"
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Originally Posted by SpecialTracking
(Post 2009245)
Hey Marvin ;) it is a welcome change when it occurs. I find myself asking afterwards "did that really just happen?"
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