I liked Mister Bill.

Who?.......

Ooooooo nooooooo

It was taught by two very junior FO's. Love the fact that there was no Captain facilitating it.....

One guy.....huge chip on his shoulder. "I am tired of all these *****ing Captains *****ing about everything...."

if we want to teach leadership lets bring in some Captains.

Yeah because we can't learn from FOs ?!:eek:

Fail - time for you to go back to Leap.

Indeed. Some just make this job harder than it should be, and think it's harder than it should be.

Yeah.......Not a single FO at this company has ever been a Captain:rolleyes:

Captains hold that position because of date of hire. That is the only reason. Leadership my arse.

hahahaha!!

I would say one FO and one CA would be fine.

TWO FO's NOT FINE!

If you want the benefit of line experience you need the perspective of our experienced Captains.

if you want the perspective of new folks in the industry then an FO is what you need.

management is doing this purely because a new hire FO is "cheap" in order to staff the class with an "instructor/facilitator."

No other reason.....

Do you think a junior flight attendant has the credibility to make a scripted PA announcement that's been vetted by Sr Managment? What's the difference?

I hear ya MoP.

Yeah we had a new FO teaching our class, he only spent 20 years in the Air Force! What does he know about leadership! There were three new regional guys in my class, they only had a combined 20k flight hours. I tell ya, we're scraping the bottom of the barrel! :)

Maybe the use of First Officers was intentional...

Hey! I'm your First Officer: almost off probation.

I haven't mentioned it yet to anyone I've flown with at United, but since you made it a thing: I was a Captain for over a decade prior to this, and an LCA for 7 years during that time. We averaged 6 legs a day out of ORD, teaching guys to fly a jet in 121 operations who had previously flown a GA light twin.

I am over the moon happy to be here, and I sure as hell understand and respect the chain of command, but respect is a two-way street.

Sincerely,

Your F.O., next week.

Well said! I've only flown with one captain here at United (I was hired in 2000) who didn't give a crap about his FOs opinions/concerns... He's on the 756 out of IAD. We have ability here to block flying with captains like him.

BOOM !!

More importantly- your halfwing will be retired soon - GRAB as MANY "benefits" as you can while you can - and congrats brutha ! :)

Yes, ORD doesn't wig you out. The Expressway visual 31 and River Visual 19 are a mere afterthought. You've seen it all all and if you don't speak up I'd be more than disappointed. Everyone needs to speak up whether they thinks it's big or small. I'm glad you guys are here. You truly are a breath of fresh air listening to your experiences.

Equally important to speaking up is listening. When I hear guys laughing about a previous Captain complaining about a certain issue I tend to bite my lip. Sometimes it's better to be a sponge. Remember, in the end it's all business. What you have was negotiated for you, and if they can, they'd take it away in a heartbeat. The Captain that was laughed about probably has seen the worst.

I had two "junior" FO's facilitating my LEAP class and I found them to be outstanding. I've been a Captain here for a long time but they taught me a lot in that class.

My personal impression of LEAP was that it all comes down to the effectiveness of the facilitators. If they are good, class will be very valuable. If they tank, it's a waste of money. Fortunately the two that taught my class were exceptional.

Exactly. Are we arguing about the message or who delivers the message? It's concerning if one doesn't walk away from leap without a little bit of introspection.

Well stated. Manage your own attitude, but be cautious in judging someone else's. Don't get caught up in the negativity, but younger guys and post-merger hires (like myself) do better when they educate themselves on the history that is the backdrop for many of the more tenured pilots' frustrations. Having a positive outlook is not an excuse for being ignorant of the past or disinterested in protecting the future of the profession. I can't speak to anyone else's experience, but I thought the facilitators that led our class did a good job presenting that message.

NO.

We have "check the box" syndrome at UAL. Our entire training experience is "check the box."

The whole thing is scripted to get across a particular message. The facilitators want you to "discuss" the issues that they bring up. However, they are quick to shut down discussion that does not fit with their script.

The entire emphasis on the class is meant to encourage professional behaviors, enforce proper SOP adhearance, and open discussion (debrief) to drive flight operations into a safer place.

That's cool.

What's not cool is two junior FO's who haven't walked the walk and who are just talking the talk.

So, from your perspective, it doesn't matter who relays the message, as long as the message got relayed. Why not have Greg Hart and Howard Attarian shoot a video and just have us watch a "mock" LEAP class. They would do a fine job right? No, because they can't spell PBS, they can't discuss BOG ops, they can't speak to the issues, the distractions, the operational considerations that go into decision making and flying the line. And, they don't have a depth and breadth of knowledge to speak to the various levels of experience and perspective that make up not only this pilot group, but all within the profession.

So, I ask you. Is it just "relay a message via a canned script", or is about fostering open dialogue with someone who has been there and done that and who can speak to the issues? How about a senior Captain who has flown 4 or 5 different fleet types and has been a Captain for the airline for 20 years? What's wrong with that? That would certainly add credibility to the program and better represent what LEAP should be about.

The reason a Senior Captain got to be a senior Captain is partly because he/she figured out how to do the stuff that LEAP represents and embodies what the profession is all about. I've flown with Captains that wrote the script on LEAP 24 plus years ago. Those guys and gals are out there and they do great with Gen X, Y, Z, and A, B, C.

Today and tomorrow there will be a senior Captain mentoring some new hire FO's on the line. If it's good enough for the line, then why not the classroom?

We have FO's doing most of our training. Most can't answer the questions posed to them during the training. I find it "canned." I would limit the FO's in the training roles due to lack of experience. One FO in the LEAP class would be fine. We do it on the line that way, we have one FO and one CA on the trip, why not in this classroom? I think its the same reason we do it in the training department: costs. It's cheaper right? That's the answer I get from training when asked why so many FO's involved.

Maybe you work for another airline. At UAL it takes 20 years to make captain. We have FOs with 20 years of no "experience" but will magically become very experienced one year after making captain.

I tend to disagree. Yes, what we have is a scripted program, not well suited for discussion, facilitated by the special project gurus at United. I thought my facilitators did a good job presenting what was in front of them. I often wonder if there are times when certain events are produced for our benefit or to placate the concerns of others on the sideline. Be it mutual or not, I did find the class somewhat beneficial. I think it's important to have FO's involved and not just senior Captains since they can relate timely bonehead moves that many of us have made. The more perspective, the better.

What you describe would be better suited if coordinated and facilitated by ALPA Air Safety and ERC members. I think behind closed doors, a true learning experience would occur.

We had one Capt and one FO facilitator in IAD... Training was well planned and the two facilitators did a great job IMO.

There is a big push to have some "mentoring" going on due to the juniority of the pilot group, relative inexperience, rapid hiring, and growth. This is a talking point of management and ALPA safety as well as the FAA. As a matter of fact the FAA increases observation time when certain "markers" appear that warrant increased scrutiny.

Yes, a Fo can relate a bonehead move. Not sure how more timely it would be or it would not be. Not sure timeliness is relevant.

Both ALPA and the airline want Captains to do more mentoring. The person who should initiate the debrief, if one is done should be the Captain. He/she may not, but that is the way it should be done. If he/she fails to do so, a well meaning FO, doing it the right way can do a stand up job.

The point is, if we want our Captains to act like Captains, then they need to be seen and heard doing their job. An FO is a Captain in training. That isn't a bad thing, that's just the way it is.

Management has said numerous times when asked the number one reason the training realm is dominated by FO's is because it's cheap labor.

The lack of experience in the training department is telling. Heck, I have seen a 14 month FO involved in pilot hiring. It's crazy. Just plain nuts.

We should get away from checking the box and filling the square. We should also do a better job of teaching the debriefing skills to our Captains, and this is better done and better received by Captains.

Yes, an FO, or a whatever can read a slide and stay on script. That's not the point. I have heard it said many times. All I needed was a 10 minute talk about debriefs and another 10 minutes on professionalism and that would have been all I needed. Why the entire day? The retention rate on this class wasn't that great (like most of our training). Some good time spent, but lots of wasted time.

The Greg Hart and Tom Stivala dog and pony show was the cake-topper. That was awesome. Greg doesn't know the answer, and Tom says he'll email you an answer next week. Talk about credibility....

A Captain should have been presenting and moreover he/she should have been the lead facilitator. Just like it says on the PA. The aircraft is under Command of Captain Joe and assisting him is FO Sue.

A senior Captain is a senior Captain for 1 reason and 1 reason only....they were here first. There is no merit....they were here first. Can we learn from them? Absolutely a great deal! But others cannot retire fast enough and offer nothing but pain to the pilot group.

I have 6 type ratings, all given to me by 121 carriers and I have been a Captain at 2 different airlines. However, I have not been a Captain at United. I'm sorry you feel your FOs are under qualified. Maybe you should go into the training department and try to fix some of the issues you see. Did you volunteer to bring your awesome 4 stripe knowledge as a LEAP facilitator? Maybe you should downgrade yourself to FO so you can finally fly with some pilots that know what they are doing........

What better practice for "Captains in training" than to review and discuss the failings of incumbent Captains.

Our LEaP instructors introduced themselves but I missed the CA/FO part so I don't even know which they were--and it made no difference. The syllabus could just as well have been taught by Tony Robbins. Replies to our input were "yes, I see, great comment, thanks for that" and not much more, then they went back to the syllabus to keep us on track and get us out of there before 4pm.

LEaP Training
 

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