MEC just screwed me out of $1500
10-21-2016, 04:54 AM
#22
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 2,639
Originally Posted by oldmako
8. Company laughs at pilots and uses over 3B$ to buy back stock.
>4B$ already spent (with 2.6B$ so far this year) with another 2B$ authorized by the board. Let's keep those APU's off.
10-21-2016, 04:54 AM
#23
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
[QUOTE=oldmako;2227963]1. Company unilaterally screws hundreds, and perhaps more, pilots out of pay for years. Both regular pay and overtime.
2. Union tries to get the company to fix the problems.
/QUOTE]
The problem was fixed- then the MEC screwed the pooch when they got greedy.
2. Union tries to get the company to fix the problems.
/QUOTE]
The problem was fixed- then the MEC screwed the pooch when they got greedy.
10-21-2016, 04:58 AM
#24
Banned
Thread Starter
Joined APC: May 2014
Position: Tom’s Whipping boy.
Posts: 1,182
Originally Posted by oldmako
2. Union tries to get the company to fix the problems.
5. Pilots ***** and moan about the union.
5. Pilots ***** and moan about the union.
Pilot Compensation: Captain Marty Torres
Last week’s MEC update included this important information regarding how to receive full pay value in a vacation month if PBS-awarded LPV/PTC is less than MPG (“upside down”) and if you pick up additional flying, known as “PTC Plus Up.” The Pilot Compensation Committee has received numerous PDRs and would like to emphasize that this treatment only applies to Lineholders in a Vacation month who are “upside down” and it has no impact on Reserves. Also, the Pilot Compensation Committee reminds pilots that the Negotiating Committee is working to achieve a letter of agreement to address this issue.
Below is a reprint of the Thursday, Sept. 22, 2016 PTC Plus Up communication, followed by a short Q&A with some examples to better understand this issue. If you have further questions, please file a payroll/expense PDR.
PTC Plus Up: The Impact of Trip Trading During a Vacation Month
The Problem
If a lineholder is awarded a line where his LPV/PTC are less than MPG, there is a gap between the two values forcing a pilot who picks up flying to fly “for free” until that gap is filled. With the advent of vacation as Add Pay in the UPA, this has become more common. For brevity, we refer to this as being “upside down” since LPV/PTC are less than MPG.
For example, let’s take a lineholder with 7 days of vacation and a 74 hour PBS line award in a 30 day month:
Add Pay
22:45 vacation
LPV/PTC
51:15 flying
MPG
53:40
Because his MPG is greater than LPV/PTC, his total pay for the month if he does nothing is actually going to be MPG+Add Pay= 76:25, not the 74 hour line award.
However, let’s say this pilot picks up a 10 hour trip. Per the UPA, his numbers do the following:
Add Pay
22:45 vacation
LPV/PTC
61:15 flying
MPG
53:40
Because his LPV/PTC is greater than MPG, his total pay is now LPV/PTC+ Add Pay= 84. His 10 hour pickup only increased his pay by 7:35 rather than 10:00. He flew 2:25 “for free”.
Current Flight Ops Policy-“PTC Plus Up”
The Company recognized that pilots were upset about “flying for free” and that pilots might decide not to pick up flying if part of that increase was “for free”. So the Company instituted a “PTC Plus Up” policy where, at the end of the month, any upside down pilot who had a net increase due to picking up flying could contact the Company (email [email protected]), and the Company would adjust his pay to ensure he did not fly “for free”. So in our example above, that pilot would contact the Company, and his pay for the month would be adjusted from 84 up to 86:25 to make sure he received full pay for the 10 hour trip he picked up. Unfortunately, this Company policy was not well communicated or understood, so many pilots were unaware of it, and either flew “for free” or elected not to pick up because they didn’t want to fly “for free."
Note: A pilot whose starting LPV/PTC is equal to or greater than his MPG in a vacation month does not need to take any action to receive full pay value for any pickups, and he should not email [email protected]. Also, a partial exception to this policy occurs when a pilot receives a “low line” in PBS, e.g. “Ttl Credit” 68:30, in which case he must first work off the gap between his PBS award and 70:00, prior to receiving full pay value for the balance of his net pick up.
UAL MEC Direction Going Forward
The Negotiating Committee has been directed to achieve a letter of agreement to address this issue. Until further notice, please continue to follow the Company policy, and send your details to [email protected] for the PTC Plus Up calculation.
Q&A:
Q1. How do I find my Ttl Credit in PBS?
A1. Ttl Credit is found on the top line of your PBS award, and is the sum of your Ttl Block+Ttl Soft Hrs+Vac Credit:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/UAL/ImageView.aspx?id=10986
Q2. How is MPG calculated?
A2. MPG can be found on your CCS pay register. For line holders, MPG is 2:20 per day of availability (e.g. days that are not vacation or leave), capped at 70 hours in a 31 day month.
MPG can change proportionally if you trade down then up, but can never exceed 2:20 x days of availability. Due to current CCS programing limitations, the pay register does not always correctly reflect MPG.
In the above PBS award, MPG is calculated as follows:
September is a 31 day month (Aug 29-Sep 28) so 14 days of vacation leaves 17 days of availability
MPG = 17 x 2:20 = 39:40
The above starting MPG will be displayed on the pilot’s CCS pay register at the beginning of the month.
In this example, MPG is greater than LPV/PTC at start of month and the pilot is upside down. Therefore, if this pilot picks up additional net flying for the month he should contact [email protected] to receive full pay value for the net increase.
Below is a screenshot of the pay buckets on the CCS Pay Register page 1 highlighting MPG:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/UAL/ImageView.aspx?id=10984
Q3. What is a “low line” in PBS?
A3. A low line is when Ttl Credit awarded in PBS is less than 70 hours when you are available for the full bid period for vacation and flying. If you have other absences such as FMLA or Mil Leave then this will be reduced by 2:20 for each day of absence.
Q4. What do I need to include in my email to [email protected]?
A4. The suggested format for your email to Post Pay is:
Dear Post-Pay,
My (Insert month) starting PTC/LPV was less than my MPG during a vacation month.
I picked up flying which resulted in a net increase of PTC/LPV.
Please adjust my pay to capture the additional full value of this additional flying I picked up during the month.
Please confirm receipt of this request.
Sincerely,
Captain/FO xx, FNxxxxxx
Originally Posted by SpecialTracking
^^^^
This. Interesting that the company isn't willing to put something in writing that they were already doing.
This. Interesting that the company isn't willing to put something in writing that they were already doing.
Last edited by BMEP100; 10-21-2016 at 05:11 AM.
10-21-2016, 05:17 AM
#25
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: The GF of FUPM
Posts: 3,073
A band-aid that requires individual pilots to use a micrometer and ledger to calculate their pay, and then submit emails to request it is not a fix.
Where was the umbrage when we were systematically getting shorted by the company? But now individuals are feeling individual pain the GD "greedy" union screwed up. I will allow that in hindsight, this could have been handled better, but until individuals start thinking and acting in the collective, we will continue to have idiotic skirmishes like this one. And of course the union will be the target of the resultant ire.
Crap like this needs to be in the contract, and in black and white. Do you think the union wanted such a Byzantine pay program, or do you think the company did? Why don't they just fix it now?
Most of the pilots on the property have been here in excess of 20 years and fully remember that pay never, ever used to be an issue. As a consequence, many are now unwilling to kick this can down the road any further. I'm glad that the GD union has shown some mettle. The New-U has created this morass and it needs to be addressed.
Where was the umbrage when we were systematically getting shorted by the company? But now individuals are feeling individual pain the GD "greedy" union screwed up. I will allow that in hindsight, this could have been handled better, but until individuals start thinking and acting in the collective, we will continue to have idiotic skirmishes like this one. And of course the union will be the target of the resultant ire.
Crap like this needs to be in the contract, and in black and white. Do you think the union wanted such a Byzantine pay program, or do you think the company did? Why don't they just fix it now?
Most of the pilots on the property have been here in excess of 20 years and fully remember that pay never, ever used to be an issue. As a consequence, many are now unwilling to kick this can down the road any further. I'm glad that the GD union has shown some mettle. The New-U has created this morass and it needs to be addressed.
10-21-2016, 05:35 AM
#26
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
Originally Posted by BMEP100
It was in writing, The MEC wanted something else. ASK the MEC to post the draft of the LOA they were demanding.
First, it is completely unacceptable to have pilots who don't understand the intricacies of MPG, LPV & PTC and the implications of a vacation month to not get paid the same as those who do. This was the case for well over a year. The company LOVES this kind of thing. They get pilots flying extra time and only have to pay those in the know who email postpay. Talk about arbitrary and capricious. This is not unlike the company playing favorites with SRM, LCAs, instructors, you name it. We cannot allow the company to divide our ranks like that.
As the MEC came to understand what was happening they educated the membership and sought to systemically fix the problem. The company, not unexpectedly, balked and chose to communicate directly to the pilots. This is a standard anti-union tactic. Now it is incumbent upon us to support our negotiators and avoid picking up extra time in vacation months and enjoy the time off.
What is amazing is how short-sighted some pilots are in the midst of strong pay increases, seat movement and historic profit sharing. Some even have the unmitigated gall to rip on our union that negotiated these compensation increases.
We have seen the enemy and it is us.
10-21-2016, 05:38 AM
#27
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: 320 Captain
Posts: 634
Originally Posted by BMEP100
The problem was fixed- til the MEC decided to thump it's chest
Pilot Compensation: Captain Marty Torres
Last week’s MEC update included this important information regarding how to receive full pay value in a vacation month if PBS-awarded LPV/PTC is less than MPG (“upside down”) and if you pick up additional flying, known as “PTC Plus Up.” The Pilot Compensation Committee has received numerous PDRs and would like to emphasize that this treatment only applies to Lineholders in a Vacation month who are “upside down” and it has no impact on Reserves. Also, the Pilot Compensation Committee reminds pilots that the Negotiating Committee is working to achieve a letter of agreement to address this issue.
Below is a reprint of the Thursday, Sept. 22, 2016 PTC Plus Up communication, followed by a short Q&A with some examples to better understand this issue. If you have further questions, please file a payroll/expense PDR.
PTC Plus Up: The Impact of Trip Trading During a Vacation Month
The Problem
If a lineholder is awarded a line where his LPV/PTC are less than MPG, there is a gap between the two values forcing a pilot who picks up flying to fly “for free” until that gap is filled. With the advent of vacation as Add Pay in the UPA, this has become more common. For brevity, we refer to this as being “upside down” since LPV/PTC are less than MPG.
For example, let’s take a lineholder with 7 days of vacation and a 74 hour PBS line award in a 30 day month:
Add Pay
22:45 vacation
LPV/PTC
51:15 flying
MPG
53:40
Because his MPG is greater than LPV/PTC, his total pay for the month if he does nothing is actually going to be MPG+Add Pay= 76:25, not the 74 hour line award.
However, let’s say this pilot picks up a 10 hour trip. Per the UPA, his numbers do the following:
Add Pay
22:45 vacation
LPV/PTC
61:15 flying
MPG
53:40
Because his LPV/PTC is greater than MPG, his total pay is now LPV/PTC+ Add Pay= 84. His 10 hour pickup only increased his pay by 7:35 rather than 10:00. He flew 2:25 “for free”.
Current Flight Ops Policy-“PTC Plus Up”
The Company recognized that pilots were upset about “flying for free” and that pilots might decide not to pick up flying if part of that increase was “for free”. So the Company instituted a “PTC Plus Up” policy where, at the end of the month, any upside down pilot who had a net increase due to picking up flying could contact the Company (email [email protected]), and the Company would adjust his pay to ensure he did not fly “for free”. So in our example above, that pilot would contact the Company, and his pay for the month would be adjusted from 84 up to 86:25 to make sure he received full pay for the 10 hour trip he picked up. Unfortunately, this Company policy was not well communicated or understood, so many pilots were unaware of it, and either flew “for free” or elected not to pick up because they didn’t want to fly “for free."
Note: A pilot whose starting LPV/PTC is equal to or greater than his MPG in a vacation month does not need to take any action to receive full pay value for any pickups, and he should not email [email protected]. Also, a partial exception to this policy occurs when a pilot receives a “low line” in PBS, e.g. “Ttl Credit” 68:30, in which case he must first work off the gap between his PBS award and 70:00, prior to receiving full pay value for the balance of his net pick up.
UAL MEC Direction Going Forward
The Negotiating Committee has been directed to achieve a letter of agreement to address this issue. Until further notice, please continue to follow the Company policy, and send your details to [email protected] for the PTC Plus Up calculation.
Q&A:
Q1. How do I find my Ttl Credit in PBS?
A1. Ttl Credit is found on the top line of your PBS award, and is the sum of your Ttl Block+Ttl Soft Hrs+Vac Credit:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/UAL/ImageView.aspx?id=10986
Q2. How is MPG calculated?
A2. MPG can be found on your CCS pay register. For line holders, MPG is 2:20 per day of availability (e.g. days that are not vacation or leave), capped at 70 hours in a 31 day month.
MPG can change proportionally if you trade down then up, but can never exceed 2:20 x days of availability. Due to current CCS programing limitations, the pay register does not always correctly reflect MPG.
In the above PBS award, MPG is calculated as follows:
September is a 31 day month (Aug 29-Sep 28) so 14 days of vacation leaves 17 days of availability
MPG = 17 x 2:20 = 39:40
The above starting MPG will be displayed on the pilot’s CCS pay register at the beginning of the month.
In this example, MPG is greater than LPV/PTC at start of month and the pilot is upside down. Therefore, if this pilot picks up additional net flying for the month he should contact [email protected] to receive full pay value for the net increase.
Below is a screenshot of the pay buckets on the CCS Pay Register page 1 highlighting MPG:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/UAL/ImageView.aspx?id=10984
Q3. What is a “low line” in PBS?
A3. A low line is when Ttl Credit awarded in PBS is less than 70 hours when you are available for the full bid period for vacation and flying. If you have other absences such as FMLA or Mil Leave then this will be reduced by 2:20 for each day of absence.
Q4. What do I need to include in my email to [email protected]?
A4. The suggested format for your email to Post Pay is:
Dear Post-Pay,
My (Insert month) starting PTC/LPV was less than my MPG during a vacation month.
I picked up flying which resulted in a net increase of PTC/LPV.
Please adjust my pay to capture the additional full value of this additional flying I picked up during the month.
Please confirm receipt of this request.
Sincerely,
Captain/FO xx, FNxxxxxx
It was in writing, The MEC wanted something else. ASK the MEC to post the draft of the LOA they were demanding.
Pilot Compensation: Captain Marty Torres
Last week’s MEC update included this important information regarding how to receive full pay value in a vacation month if PBS-awarded LPV/PTC is less than MPG (“upside down”) and if you pick up additional flying, known as “PTC Plus Up.” The Pilot Compensation Committee has received numerous PDRs and would like to emphasize that this treatment only applies to Lineholders in a Vacation month who are “upside down” and it has no impact on Reserves. Also, the Pilot Compensation Committee reminds pilots that the Negotiating Committee is working to achieve a letter of agreement to address this issue.
Below is a reprint of the Thursday, Sept. 22, 2016 PTC Plus Up communication, followed by a short Q&A with some examples to better understand this issue. If you have further questions, please file a payroll/expense PDR.
PTC Plus Up: The Impact of Trip Trading During a Vacation Month
The Problem
If a lineholder is awarded a line where his LPV/PTC are less than MPG, there is a gap between the two values forcing a pilot who picks up flying to fly “for free” until that gap is filled. With the advent of vacation as Add Pay in the UPA, this has become more common. For brevity, we refer to this as being “upside down” since LPV/PTC are less than MPG.
For example, let’s take a lineholder with 7 days of vacation and a 74 hour PBS line award in a 30 day month:
Add Pay
22:45 vacation
LPV/PTC
51:15 flying
MPG
53:40
Because his MPG is greater than LPV/PTC, his total pay for the month if he does nothing is actually going to be MPG+Add Pay= 76:25, not the 74 hour line award.
However, let’s say this pilot picks up a 10 hour trip. Per the UPA, his numbers do the following:
Add Pay
22:45 vacation
LPV/PTC
61:15 flying
MPG
53:40
Because his LPV/PTC is greater than MPG, his total pay is now LPV/PTC+ Add Pay= 84. His 10 hour pickup only increased his pay by 7:35 rather than 10:00. He flew 2:25 “for free”.
Current Flight Ops Policy-“PTC Plus Up”
The Company recognized that pilots were upset about “flying for free” and that pilots might decide not to pick up flying if part of that increase was “for free”. So the Company instituted a “PTC Plus Up” policy where, at the end of the month, any upside down pilot who had a net increase due to picking up flying could contact the Company (email [email protected]), and the Company would adjust his pay to ensure he did not fly “for free”. So in our example above, that pilot would contact the Company, and his pay for the month would be adjusted from 84 up to 86:25 to make sure he received full pay for the 10 hour trip he picked up. Unfortunately, this Company policy was not well communicated or understood, so many pilots were unaware of it, and either flew “for free” or elected not to pick up because they didn’t want to fly “for free."
Note: A pilot whose starting LPV/PTC is equal to or greater than his MPG in a vacation month does not need to take any action to receive full pay value for any pickups, and he should not email [email protected]. Also, a partial exception to this policy occurs when a pilot receives a “low line” in PBS, e.g. “Ttl Credit” 68:30, in which case he must first work off the gap between his PBS award and 70:00, prior to receiving full pay value for the balance of his net pick up.
UAL MEC Direction Going Forward
The Negotiating Committee has been directed to achieve a letter of agreement to address this issue. Until further notice, please continue to follow the Company policy, and send your details to [email protected] for the PTC Plus Up calculation.
Q&A:
Q1. How do I find my Ttl Credit in PBS?
A1. Ttl Credit is found on the top line of your PBS award, and is the sum of your Ttl Block+Ttl Soft Hrs+Vac Credit:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/UAL/ImageView.aspx?id=10986
Q2. How is MPG calculated?
A2. MPG can be found on your CCS pay register. For line holders, MPG is 2:20 per day of availability (e.g. days that are not vacation or leave), capped at 70 hours in a 31 day month.
MPG can change proportionally if you trade down then up, but can never exceed 2:20 x days of availability. Due to current CCS programing limitations, the pay register does not always correctly reflect MPG.
In the above PBS award, MPG is calculated as follows:
September is a 31 day month (Aug 29-Sep 28) so 14 days of vacation leaves 17 days of availability
MPG = 17 x 2:20 = 39:40
The above starting MPG will be displayed on the pilot’s CCS pay register at the beginning of the month.
In this example, MPG is greater than LPV/PTC at start of month and the pilot is upside down. Therefore, if this pilot picks up additional net flying for the month he should contact [email protected] to receive full pay value for the net increase.
Below is a screenshot of the pay buckets on the CCS Pay Register page 1 highlighting MPG:
https://crewroom.alpa.org/UAL/ImageView.aspx?id=10984
Q3. What is a “low line” in PBS?
A3. A low line is when Ttl Credit awarded in PBS is less than 70 hours when you are available for the full bid period for vacation and flying. If you have other absences such as FMLA or Mil Leave then this will be reduced by 2:20 for each day of absence.
Q4. What do I need to include in my email to [email protected]?
A4. The suggested format for your email to Post Pay is:
Dear Post-Pay,
My (Insert month) starting PTC/LPV was less than my MPG during a vacation month.
I picked up flying which resulted in a net increase of PTC/LPV.
Please adjust my pay to capture the additional full value of this additional flying I picked up during the month.
Please confirm receipt of this request.
Sincerely,
Captain/FO xx, FNxxxxxx
It was in writing, The MEC wanted something else. ASK the MEC to post the draft of the LOA they were demanding.
There was an attempt to formalize the process via an MOU/LOA. Those negotiations were unsuccessful so we revert to what actually is in the contract. And pilots blame ALPA for that????
No one has "lost" money. You still get paid what you were assigned via PBS. Up to the pilot if they want to pick something extra even with the potential difference in PTC/MPG factored in.
10-21-2016, 06:09 AM
#28
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,138
Originally Posted by oldmako
A band-aid that requires individual pilots to use a micrometer and ledger to calculate their pay, and then submit emails to request it is not a fix.
Where was the umbrage when we were systematically getting shorted by the company? But now individuals are feeling individual pain the GD "greedy" union screwed up. I will allow that in hindsight, this could have been handled better, but until individuals start thinking and acting in the collective, we will continue to have idiotic skirmishes like this one. And of course the union will be the target of the resultant ire.
Crap like this needs to be in the contract, and in black and white. Do you think the union wanted such a Byzantine pay program, or do you think the company did? Why don't they just fix it now?
Most of the pilots on the property have been here in excess of 20 years and fully remember that pay never, ever used to be an issue. As a consequence, many are now unwilling to kick this can down the road any further. I'm glad that the GD union has shown some mettle. The New-U has created this morass and it needs to be addressed.
Where was the umbrage when we were systematically getting shorted by the company? But now individuals are feeling individual pain the GD "greedy" union screwed up. I will allow that in hindsight, this could have been handled better, but until individuals start thinking and acting in the collective, we will continue to have idiotic skirmishes like this one. And of course the union will be the target of the resultant ire.
Crap like this needs to be in the contract, and in black and white. Do you think the union wanted such a Byzantine pay program, or do you think the company did? Why don't they just fix it now?
Most of the pilots on the property have been here in excess of 20 years and fully remember that pay never, ever used to be an issue. As a consequence, many are now unwilling to kick this can down the road any further. I'm glad that the GD union has shown some mettle. The New-U has created this morass and it needs to be addressed.
10-21-2016, 06:11 AM
#29
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: 787
Posts: 3,138
Originally Posted by Flytolive
You pretend that this was a simple matter.
First, it is completely unacceptable to have pilots who don't understand the intricacies of MPG, LPV & PTC and the implications of a vacation month to not get paid the same as those who do. This was the case for well over a year. The company LOVES this kind of thing. They get pilots flying extra time and only have to pay those in the know who email postpay. Talk about arbitrary and capricious. This is not unlike the company playing favorites with SRM, LCAs, instructors, you name it. We cannot allow the company to divide our ranks like that.
As the MEC came to understand what was happening they educated the membership and sought to systemically fix the problem. The company, not unexpectedly, balked and chose to communicate directly to the pilots. This is a standard anti-union tactic. Now it is incumbent upon us to support our negotiators and avoid picking up extra time in vacation months and enjoy the time off.
What is amazing is how short-sighted some pilots are in the midst of strong pay increases, seat movement and historic profit sharing. Some even have the unmitigated gall to rip on our union that negotiated these compensation increases.
We have seen the enemy and it is us.
First, it is completely unacceptable to have pilots who don't understand the intricacies of MPG, LPV & PTC and the implications of a vacation month to not get paid the same as those who do. This was the case for well over a year. The company LOVES this kind of thing. They get pilots flying extra time and only have to pay those in the know who email postpay. Talk about arbitrary and capricious. This is not unlike the company playing favorites with SRM, LCAs, instructors, you name it. We cannot allow the company to divide our ranks like that.
As the MEC came to understand what was happening they educated the membership and sought to systemically fix the problem. The company, not unexpectedly, balked and chose to communicate directly to the pilots. This is a standard anti-union tactic. Now it is incumbent upon us to support our negotiators and avoid picking up extra time in vacation months and enjoy the time off.
What is amazing is how short-sighted some pilots are in the midst of strong pay increases, seat movement and historic profit sharing. Some even have the unmitigated gall to rip on our union that negotiated these compensation increases.
We have seen the enemy and it is us.
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