NoQ4You

Hello. Shortly our airline, WestJet, will likely be certified with ALPA. Our Organizing Committee members have been silent on an important question to some of us.

In short, does the ALPA Administrative Manual (not your MEC Policy Manual) say anything with respect to a non-merger seniority list? Does it say that the list has to be by DOH? The former Canadian Airline Pilot's Association (CALPA), which later merged with ALPA had such a statement in its Administrative Manual, that seniority lists would be ordered by DOH.

Some of us will be losers if we go by DOH. But that's life in the big leagues I guess.

A320fumes

Neither of those strategies are hard-coded in the Admin Manual. You'll find the admin manual is as vague as possible regarding the SLI process.


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NoQ4You

Thanks A320fumes. Unfortunately this isn't a SLI process, with which I am very familiar. WestJet owns a separate Q400 operation. Both airlines are currently non-union.

In order to attract Q400 new hires, the decision was made to offer a carrot to Q400 pilots. When they resigned at the Q400 operation (called 'Encore'), and were hired immediately at WestJet onto the NG, they carried their original Q400 DOH with them for upgrade purposes. This put them ahead of NG pilots hired off the street and already working at WJ. Should we certify, our seniority list would look like a mixture of DOH at Encore and DOH of WJ. In effect, it is preferential 'superseniority'. There is currently no seniority bidding for monthly schedules no vacation at WJ.

Some believe, that because this is not a merger situation, we will all have to be ordered by DOH at WJ. Certainly once we are certified, the majority opinion is that new hires from Encore will go to the bottom of the list, and not jump over dues paying ALPA pilots (as is the case everywhere).

The only guidance out there, because it is available publicly, is the ALPA Constitution which has as an Objective (#6), the establishment of 'uniform principles of seniority'. As it stands, out list would be uniform for some, but not for others.

I was hoping the Administrative Manual had some direction.

baseball

ALPA policy on the matter is vague because ALPA can't predict the airline, the economy, the legislative and regulatory envionrment in which a merger or transaction may take place.

yes, there is ALPA-to-ALPA guidance, but as it relates to merging, buying, or transacting with a non-ALPA carrier, ALPA policies presumes that process must be either negotiated for, arbitrated for, or a court of law must rule upon.

IDIOTPILOT

The only example I can think of is for Continental and Continental Express. Those hired at COEX had a date of hire transferring over to CAL but they went on the seniority list based on when they moved over. This was done while still the IACP and before ALPA. The list just showed early date of hires for some benefits but the list order was effectively date of hire.

A320fumes

All true. You really want to look at arbitrations and subsequent court cases. Continental /People Express/New York Air and Mid-Atlantic/Republic might also be good precedent to study. Good luck.




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Packrat

Look at the specific ALPA Merger/Fragmentation policy. It dropped DoH in favor of "career expectations" over 20 years ago.

NoQ4You

Hello everyone. Thank you for the responses. I was not clear in my posts. There is no merger at WestJet, so all references to the ALPA Admin Manual section 45 Merger and Fragmentation do not apply.

I will simply our situation. For two years or so, we have been hiring pilots who have taken their place on an upgrade list above existing pilots. If we certify, we are being told by ALPA reps that we can, if we choose, continue to hire pilots who join the seniority list above existing ALPA members. This is a first contract with no existing union seniority list.

I would love it if I could keep my place on the list. It means a loss of 75 numbers if I cannot.

I was hoping there was a place in the Admin Manual that addressed constructing a first seniority list. Everyone else is by date of hire.

oldmako

Sucks for you. That's a great reason to never go to work for a carrier with that policy, unless of course they are hiring you as a Captain. Is Air Canada hiring?

Live better, work union.

Good luck.

NoQ4You

Absolutely. They held this out a perk to get us hired (Join now and you get number with WJ!). I'm finally seeing the light that I don't think ALPA will permit a non-DOH list, not future pilots to join the list at anywhere else than the bottom. All I can say is that the Encore operation will be parking airplanes, and so will WestJet, as the pilots hired under an illusion run to Air Canada and elsewhere.