Another failing of our lame message board software.

While it wouldn't stop it completely a MFA login would make it much more secure.

This really shouldn't be difficult.

Discussion is fine, suggestions and ideas are fine, dialogue about "how we're behind" is fine as that's all open source public knowledge, and disagreement is fine too....though we all should be able to disagree respectfully with each other.

Negotiating in public (B&G included) with personal "red lines" and specifics about what will or will not earn a vote to ratify? Yeah probably not the greatest idea.

Whenever a TA is announced in the future, we'll all have an opinion on the sum total
package and all eligible voters will have a single vote in which majority opinion will carry the day.

Until then, maybe we all take a breath, stay engaged, support our team and let them do their thing until given a reason to pivot?

Thats why you just need pay FACTs…you know what they say about opinions.

The world according to BK: We are way behind, we have accepted concessionary or neutral contracts last 2 rounds. EB is the primary reason.

Reality of BK: straight out of the military to UPS. Antiunion or union hesitant initially. Never held a single volunteer position on any committee, never ran for office. No outside airline experience. He has 0 insight or experience with how a union runs or how contracts are negotiated.

Proof: he has been asked ad nauseam to explain what the problems are at the IPA and specific solutions. Beyond simple change, new ideas, he has not offered 1 single tangible problem nor a solution to fix it. His point of view and understanding of how unions work is contradictory to every single person who has ever held EB or higher up union positions (except JS - older scheduling chair who left under unfavorable circumstances). He literally doesn’t know what he is talking about.

Somebody tried to paint BK as a victim (the union kool-aid drinkers attacking him) a few posts ago. 99% of the time BK comes out with his guns blazing, making outrageous claims, calling the vast majority of us brainwashed or delusional. He creates his own problems and as someone pointed out, almost every thread he participates in spirals downhill as soon as he joins in. He is toxic, a troll, a disruptor - a free gift to the company. To his credit, really nice guy in person.

Most of the retirees who post have been in battle, know how the game works. I’d much rather hear from them than the opinionated loud mouth arm chair quarterbacks who’ve never thrown a football in their entire lives.

YMMV

This, and Boiler's post above, are the perfect summation of BK and this entire thread.

Now that is pretty insulting and factually incorrect. I have said way dumber things on APC.

It’s a reasonable idea that a dues paying pilot can have the choice between posting in a forum with or without the advice frome wise retirees and the less wise know-it-all-skytrucker monologues that also comes with said advice.

Also, stronger moderation without inhibiting constructive communication would be appreciated. Pages upon pages of personal attacks doesn’t improve unity nor the appearance of unity.

Its 2025, are we as a society and pilot group really incapable of scrolling past posts/posters we don't agree with and/or aren't interested in seeing?

Active or retired, people have a way of harming the credibility of their contributions by the content they post and the method by which they interact with others since nobody on B&G is anonymous. In a sense the issue eventually self-corrects; at some point it becomes little more than "old man (or typical know-it-all airline pilot) yells at cloud", reputation suffers, and influence wanes.

Given how some keyboard commandos post in a way much more combative than they do face-to-face or on the phone, I also would prefer a bit more moderation at times...but that can be a sticky wicket as well (reference recent debate about bans). Who draws the line, where does the line get drawn so that people don't think it is overly permissive or overly heavy-handed, who enforces the line, which mechanism ensures everything is done objectively and what mechanism provides a way for "appeal" if necessary? Sounds simple, but unfortunately in practice really isn't. I personally tend to think among adults, the reputational hit a lack of anonymity provides as mentioned above is sufficient in most circumstances.

If some people could simply act like the professionals they profess to be and disagree with each other in a polite and respectful if direct manner, these conversations would largely be moot...

can’t argue with the Boomers Joachim……and the new VP candidate also has des airs de grandeur…

And yet they can’t, hence the need for some form of moderation. In my opinion, if that were more effective, there’d be a much larger group active on the B&G…which I can’t see as a bad thing. So much variety of experience, yet we really only get to benefit from a dozen or so people.

To be clear, I don’t disagree with your overall premise.

If you're referring to me, I missed the boomer generation by nearly 20 years.

This whole thing has the feel of FedEx and future dysfunction.

Those I used to fly with said their biggest fear with all of this hiring is the past being forgotten and mistakes repeated. They may have been correct to feel that way.

Not even close to FedEx. Most of the senior guys I fly have actually made comments that since 2014 we’ve hired a bunch of guys with big airline experience and they want the younger crowd to start helping. However, seems like the EB is not necessarily opened to it— I hear this from lots of newbies that want to help— I haven’t ask to help cus I have lots of stuff going at home.
we can’t keep living in the past, airlines are fluid and so should we. Look at the optimizer, BOOM, how do we adapt to that with 2006 expertise? We have to adapt to change and start coming up with new and fresh ideas. Even the management from what I hear is not even close to the terror of the past. So come on, let’s be real, we have tons of talent with legacy experience. We can use new and old to come up with great results.
not 700 dollars/$HR cus UPS won’t respect the language and we are run by truckers. Time to stop that BS

I was referring to the ones no longer on the seniority list.

How about starting with identifying the actual problem before trying to fix it vs putting a blindfold on an archer and hoping they hit bullseye…. 🤷‍♂️

You have a Scheduling Chair with multiple years of experience using it at a previous airline, that's how...

Which by definition means he wasn’t here in 2006.

Is that the reason the previous chair was asked to resign?

Have no idea.

Joachim, ,
You seem to come across as a bit of a snowflake. Why would you care if a retiree posts on the B&G?. And what do they say that seems to bother you so much?I’ve said it before, a retiree can convey information or opine on many subjects that can get an active line pilot fired. If an active pilot promotes a certain course of action, or inaction, he could get fired. If a retiree says the same thing, no repercussions. So why is allowing retiress’s access such a bad thing?. Chess not checkers. Read into some of the posts and try to decipher what is being said.

A couple retirees ruin it for everyone…spending hours turning everything political. Everyone knows who they are.

I was suggesting to have a section reserved for current pilots to encourage those who stay in the woodwork and not banning retirees as a whole. Really, a somewhat stricter moderation policy would probably take care of most issues. As others have said, it is only a few loud barrels who tend to derail discussion and clog up the site as if they own the place.

I understand where you’re coming from, but take my word for this, soon we may be asked to step up the pressure in order to get a contract, that messaging will be coming from members who are immune from punishment.

This x 100.

everybody knows how great Enema man is and nobody cares.

this this and this. These people constantly highjacking threads to spew division and crazy political rhetoric. The one dude can even turn a box of special K into a deep state leftist agenda. Then the other will scold paying dues pilots who dare think different than he.

and it’s not only those few retirees. There’s BK and the one dude who Thinks he is smart to finish all his post with a slated font sentence.

if there was a block button, I am SURE more people would join in discussions and share more ideas.

well done

off to find the mythical block button.

There definitely needs to be a block feature…once those guys figure out they are only talking to themselves they will move on.

Anyone afraid of a block feature realizes that they will blocked by most.

For the most part, political talk is relegated to the political section which can easily be unfollowed so none of that shows up on your feed. Moderators, however, are slow to move the rare thread to politics section that creeps in. I suspect, with zero evidence, that they see relatively low traffic in the politics section and allow the rare flyer to ride for more viewership. Eg, “you’re fired thread.” No fun bashing the lefties when no one is watching.

I’m against the blocking feature. I get the allure but you miss out when these people make valid points or provide valuable insights. Take feet swift for example. When it comes to union business and union 101, he knows what he is talking about. Too bad he is more interested in being a maga spin doctor - if he spent half his time and energy explaining union stuff we’d all be better off.

Sideshow has been around the block too and knows his stuff. I wouldn’t block either of these guys if I had the chance, though the endless political drivel always blaming the same people for everything under the sun is long past getting old.

BK might be someone I’d consider, only because he says the same thing over and over, derails threads, rarely has a coherent thought, and baselessly attacks our EB. Every once in a while he makes a good point though. Still, I think we’d be better off without his participation.

AI will offer the solutions we need: settings to mute someone’s political posts, hiding the bickering / pointless back and forth strings between two people, etc. Ie., you don’t block people entirely, just filter the crap out.

Im in the camp that retirees should be free to post. I don’t think anyone, active or retired, should be posting about religion or politics on the B&G. Plenty of places they can do that, no need to bring it into the workplace.

How bout they be responsible adults and earn the right to "not be blocked". Then their "valid points" would be seen...but until their nonsense stops they could just preach to each other. They know the rules but continure to disregard them. Not really someone whom I would take advice from anyways. The romper room antics is so childish.

I don’t think the logic checks out. Many people block the B&G altogether. It would be better if they just blocked individuals. No one should be forced to sift through pages of FS’s monologues or BK’s back and forth mudslinging. I’m sure the valuable aspects of their contributions will filter through the members who have the patience for them. A block button is a pretty elementary forum feature. That and some basic moderation could help.

People avoid the B&G because it’s too often a toxic environment, low on the civility level. It’s slowly getting better though….

Blocking people is a bad solution. I blocked everyone who more than occasionally posted political crap, regardless of what side of the aisle they are perched, from my FB feed. What’s left is a few pics of some overpriced dinner plates, annual holiday/ birthday family photos, and a ship-ton of ads. Saving grace is reels showing chicks in bikinis, dumba$$es doing dumba$$ things on motorcycles, and people explaining home renovation projects. In other words, useless scrolling. So as Boiler said earlier, and until AI can start smart filtering posts, we do have the ability to simply skip reading posts from the names of people we don’t like.

🤷‍♂️

They won’t move on though. They’ve been ‘only talking to themselves’ for years and seem more than happy to bully any dissenting opinions (not just the political ones either) right out of the B&G. People aren’t stupid & no one enjoys having their name dragged through the mud just for expressing an alternate viewpoint. Most people with half a brain think twice about posting there at all & the result is the worthless echo chamber of old men shouting at clouds that we have now. Not going to change until it gets more rigorously moderated which means it’s not going to change anytime soon. Let the buffoons have it. At least we know who the crazies are.

But putting forth the effort of scrolling thru and picking out what is nonsense is what keeps people away….thus contrary to what you are trying to achieve by not having blocking. With blocking more will come and participate.

Back on subject….so how bout that retirement?

More bigger multiplier please!

Back off subject. Yes, this, precisely. Has it occurred to the "this is fine" folks that if 95% of threads weren't hijacked by BK's bottled spite or Fleetfeet and Sideshow's spittle-flecked political rantings, the 95% of the IPA membership that don't post on the B&G might start participating in substantive discussion of workplace matters which affect us all? That's what the thing is supposed to be for, right?

I was told to post sparingly on the B&G while on probation. After about 4 months of casual lurking I noticed it was the same 12 people saying the same Nickelback over and over amongst themselves i felt like it was 3000 people watching a dozen people have 14 different text threads going on. I know BK and Fleetwood MaC mean well. For the most part. But it's a major turn off to see the same characters play freebird for the 15th time this set. I tried to ask a few honest questions on there. The threads went unanswered and eventually buried in the stack under a bunch of bs. B&G. 10 out 10 would not recommend. It's a brown echo chamber of nonsense.

Most replies thus far have merit. But I think that the user should be able to determine who they want to listen to or not. Specially the people we all know and not love. Many people I fly with are of the opinion that the BnG is a cesspool, with the same members complaining and high jacking threads. If we had the personal choice to choose who to block it would make it a hell lot easier and more palatable to tolerate. The whole “read past it” gets annoying and eventually I still have to swift through the minutia to get a bit of information. It’s not worth getting aggravated over and like me, most people will avoid it all together.
I must admit, there is good information when the threads stay on point. I’ve had questioned answered properly and were very helpful. But even in those topics, they got highjacked and it got derailed.
the fact that “you’re fire thread” lasted in the main page for as long as it did, it’s a testament of the very little moderation the boards have. I muted the hell out of it and stayed out of it. But it’s quite annoying that it kept popping up every time I logged on. Of course I ignored it, but goes to show you how little care they put into it. Once if left to the politics section it mostly died.
goes to show you, what the above poster said, that it produces traffic thus they leave them there for a while.
I really believe that if we were able to mute and shut off the people we don’t want to hear from, which clearly is indicated by this thread here is that people are tired of these clowns. Once you remove their platform who are they going to argue with? BK will tire out of no one ever responding to his comments when everyone has blocked him, same goes for fleetwood and sideshow bob and the rest of the gang.

I'm agnostic to a "block" feature.

That being said, it still blows my mind that some self-professed adult professional pilots who fly big jets and are spoiling for a fight with the Company are also afraid to participate on a message board because, what, somebody might be mean to them on the internet? IGNORE THEM!

Work-related posts don't frequently get turned political. If you have questions ask them, if they don't get an answer bump the thread because sometimes stuff gets missed by people who actually might know an answer. Of course, direct communication with IPA staff and/or committtees is the best way to get accurate information from SMEs.

Moderators are line pilots and have lives outside of work, so sometimes things take a bit to move around to the most appropriate place. If you have heartburn about a particular thread, ping the EB about it...I doubt people are monitoring looking for a single post saying "Politics?".

My experience is keyboard commandos don't interact as adversarial in the real world...but their electron reputation preceeds them on the line, and impressions can be difficult to overcome. Going back to my comment about self-professed professional pilots, it is striking that more people don't follow "The Golden Rule"...but hey, that's both a human and pilot trait I've seen across multiple segments of the industry. We IPA members are not enemies but colleagues for goodness sakes, so let's pull on the rope together even if we disagree on a given topic.

Oh and retirement...raise both the DB and DC to maintain diversified retirement income, and if we can get a tax-advantaged vehicle for spill/CoC that'd be swell.

Agreed, because these are the only places where we will likely have room to budge. And pay, but that’ll go up accordingly. Article 13 will largely remain the same, sodomizer will remain at level 13 out of 10 and we’ll remain miserable in our work lives. But at least we will have plenty to leave behind to our heirs.

I’m an optimistic ray of sunshine flying these schedules. 😎

As per above, good for you if you can ignore some frothing-at-the-mouth lunatic suggesting that you eat babies for breakfast if you don't automatically agree that that the Bilderbergs run the universe and/or vaccines cause Carl Icahn. The numbers are in, though, and a very small number of IPA pilots participate in the IPA run (and funded) message board. Why do you imagine that might be? I mean sure, maybe we're all lazy and wouldn't be there anyway, but at least for my part I don't put my oar in the water very often because it's like asking for four or five totally insane but very persistent stranger-enemies forever with no upside, since (as Russel points out), any legitimate question is liable to get buried in the same old Nickelback, over and over again.

You're right that there is good info on the B&G. I still browse. But the signal to noise is ridiculous, and I think it's totally reasonable to expect for it to be better. Better than it is, currently, isn't a big ask, and it would bring back all of those people who sniffed the poison and said "no, thanks". We want everyone involved, right?

They have lives outside of work and the interwebs?

The number who actively post may be lower than some prefer...but a massive percentage of the pilot group reads it. Would improving signal-to-noise encourage more active participation/posting? Maybe, maybe not. I'm all for more wheat/less chaff but all I can do to that end is participate the way I would prefer others to. I also know with 3400+ opinions I'm probably not gonna change a lot of habits.

Legitimate questions get answered and work-related topics get discussed on the B&G every day without the overly political bunch jumping into those threads, but like much of the internet (this APC thread is a fantastic example) the original subject often gets derailed on side tangets. Also, some members seem to prefer crowdsourced answers from a forum rather than utilizing the IPA leadership/staff/committee resources that are available to them with far more knowledge than crewroom lawyers.

Again, I can take or leave a block feature...not asking for it but don't care if it happens...I personally find staying out of political threads increases the signal-to-noise ration significantly.

YMMV, caveat emptor, etc etc

Study a little psychology. You are obviously very self confident, were probably raised well by your parents who were themselves probably conscious enough to emphasize that you learned to value yourself from yourself more than from external sources (ie. peers). You were also most likely to have been supported in the same way by the culture of the community you grew up in. Completing the trifecta comes from innate factors helping to generate these aspects of your personality.

One of the big downsides of this subtype is the potential of blind spots and rigidity which I think the portion of your post I highlighted touches on: There’s deep frustration that some grown adults can’t help but to care about what others think of them and it can be inferred that this is some sort of weakness, personality flaw, or other undesirable trait when it’s more a question of a different upbringing, culture, and genetic predispositions. There’s pros and cons for each type (actually a spectrum) with no clear position being ideal. Maslow’s hierarchy explains a lot of it.

The other downsides are often ego protection and moral/value judging. It’s not a character flaw if people value what others think of them and it’s not weakness if people don’t want to be involved in toxic / judgemental situations. Telling others to simply ignore the chaff indicates one doesn’t seem to realize this variance exists (blind spots) or has little tolerance for people who aren’t like they are (rigidity). If these people could simply ignore it they would. Dude, you know me - I’m not shy about posting on the B&G but even I’ve lost sleep, more than once, over how the forum received and reacted to posts I’ve made even if I do shoot from the hip more than I should.

Anyway, this isn’t meant to be a character attack, critique, or criticism - just a possible explanation for why you are frustrated with this issue and it kills CML time for me. I think you’re smart AF, we are lucky to have you in the group, and really hope to see you back to you know where in the future. But I would suggest a little more sympathy for those who aren’t comfortable posting on the B&G.