With Contract Extension 2 there will be a 4% raise in 09/23. Thank you EB

Included was an “A” plan bump of 4.7%. Now the “flat dollar amount” a 60 year old + crew member will receive is (Years of Service) X $4400. Up from $4200/ Year of Service. A 25 years of service crew member will receive $110.000/year at full retirement date of age 60. It would be great if we, in the next contract could receive full vesting at 25 years like some of our cargo brothers and sisters get but our rates don’t top out till 30 years. A retiring crewmember with 30 years of service will receive in retirement after 30 or 30+ years of service $4400XYears of Service =$132,00/Year. Thank you EB.

Thank you EB for locking in gains while the Teamsters who represent the majority of UPS workers settle their contract late this summer. I think sometimes some of my coworkers put the cart ahead of the horse. The teamsters and their contract

I know there are peers of mine that say we should of “forced” UPS to make our schedules great and conceded us pay rates from contracts at other airlines that will have TA’s months/years in the future. I trust my EB.

To answer your question the timeline on negotiations with the TA(2) is negotiation starting 09/24. This is from the IPA Negotiations Timeline Slides

Crewmembers will receive a 3.25% raise additionally in 09/24 and 09/25. The 15 year Top Captan pay will be $367 in 09/23, $388 in 09/24 and $401 in 09/25.

Vesting after 1 year. Say you only work 5 years, assuming you reach age 60, your pension will be $4,400 (FDA) x 5 = $22,000/year, assuming single life.

This assumes you work at least one revenue flight as a captain before retirement. Otherwise it’s 1.1% (didn’t look up percentage) FAE times years of service.

The pension is a great benefit, but it’s starting to lag inflation a bit. Hopefully we get that fixed.

tnk is right. To earn the Captain pension one must fly the revenue flight that is usually your “Release to the Line”.

The First Officer pension has the same vesting rules. In the TA extension the “A” plan flat dollar amount is multiplied by years of service. 1 through 30, when it is maxed out.

In the TA extension (2) those First Officer flat-dollar amounts were also increased to this amount multiplied by years of service:

January 2024-Captain $4525 Multiplied by YOS
First Officers $3620 X’s YOS

January 2025- Captain $4650 X’s YOS
First Officers $3720 X’s YOS.

If a crew member for whatever reason retires as a First Officer and retirees at or beyond the full-retirement age of 60 they are eligible for the flat-dollar “A” plan retirement.

Inflation concerns are all valid in my opinion but I am thankful that this leg of my retirement along with my 401k, Roth 401k, “B” Plan retirement fund (12% of earnings up to IRS limits)…full disclosure we do not get “cash over cap…

…are all there to fund my retirement. Thank you EB.

UPS has three retirement plans:

Defined Benefit Pension "A Plan": 1% FAE or Flat Dollar Amount (1% FAE is the contractual standard, but practically everybody who retires gets the substantially higher Flat Dollar Amount which is renegotiated every contract due to ERISA law)
Defined Contribution "B Plan": Money Purchase Plan (MPP) of 12% Company contribution up to IRS 401a17 compensation limit, no "cash over cap"
401K - different pot of money than Company-funded MPP, 100% employee funded, no company match

Thank you!

just curious, what about ERISA law requires the flat dollar amount be renegotiated? (Instead of just a formula like 12 x top hourly rate)

It’s an accounting exercise to minimize pension liabilities that show up on the company’s books.

That’s exactly it. Nothing to do with affordability. By using the 1% FAE instead of the FDA for a large % of the pilot workforce they reduce their liability for the books and makes the IPA have to spend some negotiating capital to capture more people for the FDA at a later date.

thanks

filler

If someone retires early are they still eligible to a pension (at age 60)?

Yes.

Early retirement min age is 55; between 55-60 there is an actuarial reduction to the defined benefit OR the defined benefit can be deferred until 60 when it is received with no reduction.

Thanks for the response. I assume by that if you don't make to 55 you lose that benefit.

You don’t lose the benefit once you’re vested and I don’t remember exactly, but one is either immediately vested or vested after completing 1 yr of service. What would happen if you quit before age 55 is you would receive nothing until your chosen retirement age, that being 55 to 60. The formula for FAE would be used.

nope. You are fully vested. Guys out on medical still get it

Pension payout at 60 if you quit before?
 

if you were to quit at age 45, you can still collect a partial pension at 60? Does the vested amount still payout or is it gone

The vested amount is yours and does not go away. You simply apply for your pension at age 60 with UPS.

I encourage everyone senior to me to choose this option

Curious to understand the system, as I‘m not familiar with company pensions:
Hypothetically, what would happen to the pension if UPS went out of business/bankruptcy?

PBGC would provide a vastly reduced benefit.

The world looks a lot different than the passenger carrier bankruptices of the naughts. UPS pilot pensions are tied to UPS management pensions, are well funded and bankruptcy law has been reformed.

"never day never" but the day UPS declares bankrupt I anticipate the world will have bigger issues...

(We currently get a 12% DC alongside the defined benefit pension)

* Unless you make more than $2XX,XXX in a year and that 12 percent becomes less. We don't have cash over cap. I forgot the exact amount.

Retiring that early would put your pension the 1 percent FAE - drastically reducing your pension amount. This something I didn't fully understand before getting hired here.


"Defined Benefit Pension "A Plan": 1% FAE or Flat Dollar Amount (1% FAE is the contractual standard, but practically everybody who retires gets the substantially higher Flat Dollar Amount which is renegotiated every contract due to ERISA law)"

We get 12% up to the 401(a)(17) Defined Contribution Compensation Limit, which is $350,000 for 2025.

Yes I absoultely want CoC too, but my point was our retirement does not begin and end with a defined benefit the way passenger carrier retirements did in the 9/11 era.

https://www.irs.gov/retirement-plans...future%20years.

Is it that high?

Yes, it is that high.

What you linked to is max defined benefit, not max defined contribution compensation limit.

"2025 Deferral Limits" or "After Tax Checklist" on the Retirement Committee page on the IPA website has more info...

So theoretically, we could negotiate the flat dollar benefit multiplier all the way up to $9166.67. Obviously, the company might not be too interested in cash over cap or industry standard pay rates in addition, but hope does spring eternal.

Thank you

Filler

Ok, I understood it would be reduced by something like 1/4-1/3. Vastly starts to imply closer to 50% or less. Do you have more concrete ballpark guesstimates?

We are in a really unstable time period, WWW3 lurking, technology advancing exponentially, everything’s constantly changing. To me, UPS’s endpoint is not an if, it’s a when issue, certainly possible within our lifetime.

It'd be a fraction of face value, but I could only speculate as to what the PBGC percentage would be.

from https://www.pbgc.gov/wr/benefits/gua...imum-guarantee

The below table is the most you could get if the pension fund went belly up and UPS was no longer on the hook to make it whole. There are plenty of caveats in this process. So do your own due diligence! Remember, it’s not what you could have earned, it’s what you already had vested when the PBGC steps in. In my case, as a recent captain upgrade years away from hitting flat dollar eligibility, it’s just 1% FAE times years of service, not the current flat dollar multiplier. That’s a not insignificant risk, but our fund is fairly well funded and rising interest on Treasuries will help our fund grow faster since it’s required to own a lot of them.



Age Straight-Life Annuity Joint and 50% Survivor Annuity 1
75 $22,592.73 $20,333.46
74 $20,541.55 $18,487.40
73 $18,490.37 $16,641.33
72 $16,439.19 $14,795.27
71 $14,388.00 $12,949.20
70 $12,336.82 $11,103.14
69 $11,073.41 $9,966.07
68 $9,958.64 $8,962.78
67 $8,992.50 $8,093.25
66 $8,175.00 $7,357.50
65 $7,431.82 $6,688.64
64 $6,911.59 $6,220.43
63 $6,391.37 $5,752.23
62 $5,871.14 $5,284.03
61 $5,350.91 $4,815.82
60 $4,830.68 $4,347.61
59 $4,533.41 $4,080.07
58 $4,236.14 $3,812.53
57 $3,938.86 $3,544.97
56 $3,641.59 $3,277.43
55 $3,344.32 $3,009.89
54 $3,195.68 $2,876.11
53 $3,047.05 $2,742.35
52 $2,898.41 $2,608.57
51 $2,749.77 $2,474.79
50 $2,601.14 $2,341.03
49 $2,452.50 $2,207.25
48 $2,303.86 $2,073.47
47 $2,155.23 $1,939.71
46 $2,006.59 $1,805.93
45 $1,857.96 $1,672.16

Out of curiosity, why do we allow some of our retirees continue to post unnecessary comments on to the BG?
I get some did Great work in the past, left us a good legacy, but there’s a few that just need to have a long needed timeout.
if their experience and expertise in the past is so useful then why not hire them as consultants? Seems like some just like to sow discord to anyone who doesn’t share their opinions. And quite frankly they don’t have skin in the game anymore. If the EB wants their opinion and expertise so badly, then maybe they should be contracted and allowed to use the BG as they see fit.
or if they so chose to let them stay, why not create a section for retirees and let them play there all they want? I do know there’s just a very small percentage of pilots who post and most of us lurk. But it really irks me when these people come out of the woodwork to hate on other pilots opinions. I really don’t give a crap about their current opinions for they get to sit at home and yell at clouds and post on the BG. Quite frankly is sad that with what we make here and with our retirement people still find the need to come to talk crap after they quit. Seems like a clinger stage 5 move.

Who decides what is or is not "unnecessary comments"?

We're all pilots and many pilots (retired and active) love sharing what they think about everything, even when they don't have any actual first-hand knowledge and/or experience with a topic. Many retirees do actually have first-hand knowledge and/or experience on given topics, and are free to share their opinions. Of course, that doesn't mean people have to like or agree with their opinions any more than liking or agreeing with the opinions of active members.

Agree with the Stage 5 Clinger sentiment...but it is possible to scroll right by posts and opinions we disagree about, regardless if they come from active or retired members.

If you think there is a forum rule violation, ping the EB or IT Committee.

thanks Boiler. It’s not out of hate, as I mentioned, just curiosity. Some topics get derailed cus a retiree and a line pilot go at each others throat. It does discord, shows weakness to UPS, and good topics lose their point. I try to ignore em as much as I can but they are becoming more and more prevalent.
and yeah, I guess who could judge what is considered relevant or not.
the BG is a great source of info for us. I look up questions I might have and more often than not find answers lost in the pages.
but more and more it turns people off when we get into fights with people who are no longer at the company.
it’s not just me, I fly often with guys who all share similar sentiments, including very senior captains.

thanks anyways!

I find B&G signal-to-noise to be better that most forums (IMO due to lack of anonymity), but like most things, ya gotta separate out wheat from chaff and that can be hard at times - both from active and retired pilots.

Pilots love sharing their opinions; some opinions are formed from actual knowledge/experience whereas others are formed from feels. The reader has to discern which opinions are more credible in any given scenario. Of course, how people communicate with each other can influence perceptions just as much as what they're communicating. It might (or might not) surprise you that some of the most...let's say "direct" B&G posters don't communicate interpersonally the way they do online.

I think the membership is getting chompy with contract FOMO, and combined with a larger societial loss of tact & decorum when in disagreement, we see posts go off the rails.

I might disagree with folks at times, but we're all we got and NOBODY gives a crap about us except us. Let's fight like brothers (or sisters) internally, disagree agreeably, and pull on the rope together.

<cue 'Imagine' by John Lennon>

It sure would be nice if we had a modern message board with a search feature that was worth a crap and a ......

Blocking feature.

I happen to know the line guy you speak of and have never met the retired guy. Although, I’ve certainly seen plenty of his posts. The line guy doesn’t do the interwebs well and can be abrasive. He’s also a good guy, albeit with rough edges. I’ve known him since before he came to UPS. The retired guy clearly wasn’t ready to walk off into a well deserved retirement and to forget how to spell UPS. I know he worked hard for the group, but his refusal to trust the next generation to make their own judgement calls undermines his inputs every time. This group puts a lot of faith in the EB, but it is also increasingly willing to make their own judgement hard choices if we don’t have our expectations met. This is really aimed more at management than our EB (who I believe is fulfilling their duty), but no TA that doesn’t leave us as industry leaders in both pay and work rules is going to survive. This pilot group sacrificed too much during COVID and is working too hard with this postal contract to accept less.

Agree with most of what you say here. However, retirees making personal attacks against current members who are actively slogging it out in the trenches is off the rails IMO. Most recently having a retiree attempt to discredit a member (who has some real concerns that deserve to be addressed) by publicly questioning the legality of a recent leg that member flew is completely unacceptable and yet another example of the B&G achieving cesspool status. I understand that some of these guys spent a career building up the IPA and instinctively wanting to protect what they helped build. I absolutely respect that. But classlessly attacking anyone who dare question the direction we’re moving in is counterproductive. It really does feel as if there are a contingent of IPA attack dogs that will aggressively quell any dissent, legitimate or otherwise. This lends further credence, deserved or not, to the idea that the narrative is rigged and the EB is not interested in new ideas. I don’t think that’s really the case, but some of the more aggressive posters might step back and consider whether their tactics are really helping the union they are ostensibly trying to help.

The lack of moderation on the B and G is odd.

Just remember the one retired guy is the only one who has ever been to union classes and knows all there is. All must listen and bow to him lest he be condescending to those who don't.

Gets old.

This! So many times I’ve tried searching for something and it’s like looking for something that fell behind the rudder pedals. I’m not a big block person but completely understand why the feature is wanted. Wading through all the political BS on a union forum is old and it’s usually the same rotation of people. It’s baffling it’s even allowed IMO and a section 19 meeting waiting to happen.