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Old 12-20-2023, 04:15 AM
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Does UPS have Intl Scope language in CBA that actually has teeth?
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Old 12-20-2023, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Redeyz View Post
Does UPS have Intl Scope language in CBA that actually has teeth?
I mean compared to FedEx international scope cause. Yes, our scope is legit.
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Old 12-20-2023, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Redeyz View Post
Does UPS have Intl Scope language in CBA that actually has teeth?
Yes, and any assertion otherwise would be factually inaccurate.

1.C Scope, 1-5
1.The execution of this Agreement on the part of the Companyshall cover crewmember operations of all aircraft operatedpursuant to the Company's Airline Operating Certificate IPXA097B, and of all aircraft operated pursuant to any additionalPart 121 Airline Operating Certificate or any foreignequivalent Airline Operating Certificate acquired by theCompany, or any affiliate of the Company in and for theservice of the Company or any affiliate or wherever located,presently operating, or to be operated in the future, except asotherwise provided in Articles 1, 13 and 16.

2.It is agreed that all present and future domestic flying onaircraft with a payload weight of more than 12,899 lbs.[19,000 lbs. for international flights] including but not limitedto, revenue flying, ferry flights, charters, training flights, testflights, or other utilization of Company owned or leasedaircraft in and for the service of the Company, or any affiliateof the Company, shall be performed by crewmembers on theUnited Parcel Service Crewmember Seniority List inaccordance with the terms and conditions of this Agreementor any other applicable agreement between the Companyand the Association, except as otherwise provided in thisAgreement. However, no combination of domestic or international feeder aircraft on any route within a service system shall have a payload capacity which equals or exceeds the payload capacity of a B-727-100 aircraft or any smaller payload aircraft which may become covered by the scope clause of this Agreement. In addition neither the Company nor any affiliate shall conclude any sale, lease, transfer or other dispositions, whether directly or indirectly, of aircraft or international routes owned or leased by the Company or any affiliate to any person(s) or entity (the Purchaser) where the Purchaser or any air carrier that controls or is under the control of the Purchaser directly or indirectly uses such aircraft or international routes to provide or receive feed, to or from the Company, pursuant to an agreement or an arrangement with the Company or an affiliate. Nothing in this paragraph shall effect the Company’s right to lease, transfer or otherwise dispose of aircraft or international routes to entities not involved in providing or receiving feed to or from the Company or to entities providing feed where such feed is provided in accordance with Article 1.

3.Neither the Company, nor any affiliate shall perform any flying for other carriers unless such flying is conducted by UPSpilots in accordance with the terms and conditions of thisAgreement. The Company, or its affiliates may enter into andmaintain marketing and schedule coordination agreementswith other carriers which are in accordance with theprovisions of this Article.

4.As used in this Article only, international operations shall belimited to flights within a foreign country or between two ormore foreign countries. Domestic flying shall include, but notbe limited to, flights which originate and/or terminate in theUnited States.

5.Notwithstanding paragraphs 1. and 2. above, the Companyshall have the right to establish an interchange agreement with a foreign carrier(s) in order to use that carrier’s pilots tocover for unavailable UPS crewmembers on an internationalflight segment(s) contained within countries of the European Union. No mixing of UPS crews with non UPS crews will beallowed. UPS crewmembers who are available for such flightsegment(s) will be pay protected and treated as displaced inaccordance with Article 13.E.9. The unavailablecrewmember(s) will be paid in accordance with theAgreement. Any such interchange agreement will not affect the Company’s obligation to provide the minimum reserve coverage required by Article 13 should the Company establish an international domicile.

1.C.7: Resolution of Disputes Concerning International Operations
If any dispute arises as to the interpretation or application of Article 1 to international operations as defined in paragraph 4 above, the dispute shall be submitted to final and binding arbitration in accordance with Article 7 and Article 1.F. of this Agreement. The Company, its affiliates, the Association, and their successors agree, that in connection with any dispute before an arbitrator or in court, not to raise as a defense the non-applicability of the Railway Labor Act to international operations as defined in C. above or flights which originate or terminate in the United States. It is also agreed that the provisions of this paragraph are specifically enforceable. The duty to arbitrate as well as the judicial review of any arbitration award under this paragraph shall be specifically enforceable in either the Federal District Court for the Western District of Kentucky or the Jefferson County Circuit Court, Louisville, Kentucky. For these purposes the parties consent to jurisdiction and venue in these courts. The parties further agree that the choice of law in any such proceeding under this paragraph will be Sections 153 and 184 of the Railway Labor Act, 45 U.S.C. Sections 151 et seq. If the Jefferson Circuit Court refuses to exercise jurisdiction, either party may file suit under this paragraph in any state court which has jurisdiction over the parties.
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Old 12-20-2023, 12:18 PM
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Thanks gents
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Old 12-20-2023, 08:10 PM
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Thanks for the info on your scope at UPS. It's interesting and frustrating to me that everytime we ask about international and extra-territorial scope at FedEx our union responds with "it's not enforcable so we arent going to bother with it". I'm curious if at UPS similiar statements are made about not being able to enforce scope for flying entirely outside the US? I'm no lawyer but it appears your contract pretty well covers it and makes it enforcable?
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Old 12-21-2023, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Meeko View Post
Thanks for the info on your scope at UPS. It's interesting and frustrating to me that everytime we ask about international and extra-territorial scope at FedEx our union responds with "it's not enforcable so we arent going to bother with it". I'm curious if at UPS similiar statements are made about not being able to enforce scope for flying entirely outside the US? I'm no lawyer but it appears your contract pretty well covers it and makes it enforcable?
Yeah, that doesn't happen here.
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Old 12-21-2023, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Meeko View Post
Thanks for the info on your scope at UPS. It's interesting and frustrating to me that everytime we ask about international and extra-territorial scope at FedEx our union responds with "it's not enforcable so we arent going to bother with it". I'm curious if at UPS similiar statements are made about not being able to enforce scope for flying entirely outside the US? I'm no lawyer but it appears your contract pretty well covers it and makes it enforcable?
UPS agreed in our scope article to not play the "the RLA doen't apply to international ops" card. That was a significant win for us. That's spelled out in the last quote from Boiler above.
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Old 12-21-2023, 05:22 PM
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What are u worried about? FDX is a monster Internationally. Do u fly Intl with FDX? They outnumber UPS at every major gateway by 3x. CRK has 4 wide bodies to UPS 1. NRT has 9 WB on the Ramp to UPS 2. KIX 6 WB's to UPS 2. SIN has 3 to UPS 1. You want me going?? I can go on with a dozen more. FDX may have a weak Scope, but it isn't affecting there footprint at all.
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Old 12-21-2023, 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Cocoloco View Post
What are u worried about? FDX is a monster Internationally. Do u fly Intl with FDX? They outnumber UPS at every major gateway by 3x. CRK has 4 wide bodies to UPS 1. NRT has 9 WB on the Ramp to UPS 2. KIX 6 WB's to UPS 2. SIN has 3 to UPS 1. You want me going?? I can go on with a dozen more. FDX may have a weak Scope, but it isn't affecting there footprint at all.
Seems a little short sighted. Fred wanted every little box on a purple tail. Not sure that’s the case moving forward, but you go with that.
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Old 12-22-2023, 03:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Cocoloco View Post
What are u worried about? FDX is a monster Internationally. Do u fly Intl with FDX? They outnumber UPS at every major gateway by 3x. CRK has 4 wide bodies to UPS 1. NRT has 9 WB on the Ramp to UPS 2. KIX 6 WB's to UPS 2. SIN has 3 to UPS 1. You want me going?? I can go on with a dozen more. FDX may have a weak Scope, but it isn't affecting there footprint at all.
How many Ups 737's do you see flying around Europe? That's the problem.
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