So let me get this straight, Bob spends 30 minutes talking about how UPS is slow rolling contract talks, proud to “be different” and sub-contracting issues. Add to that Bob’s obvious frustrated attitude, but since he didn’t say don’t pick up open time, or even whisper it, you take that as a signal to keep feeding at the trough?

He has made it known that he will very clearly tell us when something is needed. He has not done so yet. Stopping open time and JA is a useful tool that will be used strategically by the EB. I guess they aren't there yet and im not going to judge because I dont see everything they see.

That said, I wouldn't work one extra second for this place. They dont deserve my time or yours. Thats just me though.

Hopefully everyone listens when the EB does give that directive.

Every day at UPS is worse than the previous day; it’s just like Office Space. I’m almost 50, almost 4 years here with a military retirement and VA disability. Since I’m too old to switch now, my plan is to updrage first available, get my captain retirement, then resign and go fly for someone else until age 65. I cannot stress to anyone enough how much this place sucks. I came here because of the retirement and I thought that the union had our backs. I have quickly learned that there is no reason to stay.

Look CA.i don’t agree with picking up OT/JAs either. My gripe is those who complain about the EB, get told to follow, chess not checkers, etc.

BT said the EB would make it perfectly clear when action was needed. He hasn’t.

You can’t have it both ways.

Edit: if you look at saying no OT/JA right now, that would add zero pressure to the company because they have the ability to sub out flying with the MD being parked. If you wait until that debacle ends, they can’t sub out to make up for it.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but making career decisions at the absolute worst part of contract negotiations is foolish.

Right now BT has advised that negotiations are no fun, scheduling is trying to shoot holes in the contract, and our scope is under attack. This all sucks. I’d much prefer perusing a TA with 25% pay raises, cash over cap, part 117 rest rules, and a guaranteed rainbow.

However, in the meantime I will approach this job as I have since I’ve been here. When the EB needs a demonstration of unity, I’ll do my part. Until then, I’ll enjoy good scotch, great crews, and bemoan our crappy lines. I’ll decline revisions that don’t pay the contractual premiums when I have the option. My overall approach to getting max return in min time will not change, but I’ll keep an eye on what the EB sees as important. My vote on whatever comes our way will be determined by what’s best for my family (as should yours). There is no benefit in undermining the EB. If they’ve screwed the pooch, we can get a new one.

I think they will do well.

Following the EB is useless.

Think of your worst day ever, at other airlines or the military. That’s what this place is every day.

Take a look over at FedEx, and tell me the virtues of wildcatting and undermining the Union.

As per above, they're not perfect, but they're what we've got (and they are privy to a lot of information we're not). Not following their lead now, at the most critical time, is basically a suicide pact.

My EB speaks for me, 109%, etc. etc.

I've been under the impression that if a pilot union comes out and says no more open time pickups during negotiations that is considered a job action. And that means the company is going to sue the union.

Did I miss something?

Competing with BK for the, “least knowledgeable on how things work around here,” crown?

UPS is testing us: how far can they push, how resilient we are, how easily we start pointing fingers at EB vs UPS. Standard playbook if you’ve listened to the peeps who’ve been to this rodeo multiple times already. You fell right into UPS’ trap. So….golf clap?

Go ahead Sheep. BK is beyond right.

I get why people keep pushing for a JA or OT ban, but I think this post actually highlights why right now may not be the right moment for one. Too much emotionally charged chest thumping without calmly taking a look at the bigger picture.

Before the accident, I was very much pro-ban. At that time, the goal was not to make the company pay more for flying, but to make the flying not happen at all. Capacity was tight, demand was high, and if pilots collectively refused JA and OT, the schedule would break. That leverage only works when the company does not have realistic and plentiful alternatives.

Since the accident, the game has changed. The company now has several ways to move the boxes without relying on IPA pilots, with emergency authority and ACMI lift being the big differentiators. Increased management flying and aggressive use of revisions are also part of that picture, often paired with denied premiums to absorb flying at straight time.

If you are watching OT, the bait-and-switch trips are hard to miss. One leg out, long layover, then CML home. That layover is often just a revision window that keeps you operating inside the trip footprint without additional credit. That is a good reason to be selective about OT, but the larger point is that the company will still find a way to move the box. When it happens, ER it. Ensure OT trips are legal and document them when they are not. CRS is fully aware they are pushing non-contractual revisions and skeleton trips into OT, and their systems flag it even if ours does not.

In this environment, a broad refusal of JA or OT does not stop the flying. It just shifts it, and more of the work ends up with contractors or management crews.

I also understand the anger toward pilots flying JA or OT. I felt it myself looking at the JA list months ago, and I understand the “piggies at the trough” comments. That mindset made sense when refusing premium flying actually broke the schedule. Today, with a full rainbow of tails on the ramp and revisions soaking up flying at straight time, it feels incomplete. We either fly the work or watch it get chopped up and revised out of another back-end CML. The pay is a side effect of protecting scope and schedules.

There is also the union side. BT recently mentioned the possibility of a dues increase and repeatedly emphasized “fatiguing schedules” as a core issue. He did not allude to a JA or OT ban. Less IPA flying means less dues, which weakens the union when it needs to be well funded for negotiations, enforcement, and litigation.

That does not mean pilots are out of options. Honest fatigue calls matter. Paying attention to revisions and contractual compliance matters. Writing ERs for bait-and-switch trips, denied premiums, and changing company behavior matters. Those records give the union leverage with the mediator, especially if the company continues to drag its feet.

When it comes to mediation, who looks like the bad sport when the pilots are pulling their weight and the union walks in with a bucket full of proof that the company isn’t? I don’t think we should place ourselves in the “find out” stage, but I’m all for building a case to put them squarely in it!

You must not have flown at any other airline, and must have had an easy time in the military…

It will have no effect on me since you’re junior to me, but if you are going to leave, why wait for an upgrade that might be 2 to 3 years away? The difference between a 12 year career and a 15 year career at Delta/UA/AA/SW could be well over a million $$ (think 3 more years as a top of the scale captain there). You would spend your 50s doing the type of flying you want, and you would get to the left seat there years earlier than you would by waiting around here.

I’d settle for that! Either way something is wrong and needs to be fixed. FFS we have Harbor Freight straps that are used to secure us as we hang out the door of a running airplane to conduct a PTOCC.

All any individual has to barter with is our time. That's true in life, and also true at work. We all work to provide for ourselves and our families, and owe X amount of time in exchange for guarantee. When it comes to voluntarily working "more", individuals have to make a decision if their time is best spent at work or best spent not at work. While such a decision about the value of our time can be situational and/or influenced by recommendations, its ultimately a decision each individual always has to make for themselves.

And it is human nature for individuals to seek guidance - or lack thereof - that provides presumed validation of those decisions made.

Because all we have to barter with is time, life is far too short to be miserable...and every day that goes by miserable here represents the opportunity cost of lost seniority elsewhere.

All we have is our time...how are you choosing to spend yours?

BK came to ups straight out of the military. He was reportedly, to some degree, anti-union in his first few years. He had an incident early on that almost cost him his job. Only upgraded within the last couple of years so has been a career FO for most of his time. In his 20+ years here, no union work, never attempted to run for office.

His posts aren’t particularly well thought out, often don’t hold up to basic logic tests, and just aren’t indicative of someone with a quality education. It’s brash loudmouth opinion instead of, ‘lone voice of intelligent clarity/sanity.’ Further, his perspectives on how things work are in stark contrast to 90+% of people who have served in the union in any upper level capacities. You know, the people who actually know what they’re talking about on the subject.

Cheer for him at your own demise. But you have to be a sheep yourself to do so - anyone with rational thought process can see through him and his camp from a mile away.

The reality that somebody actually came up with and presented the idea of opening a door with an engine running shows there is no safety first culture here - most safety conscious people would see that as a line being crossed. Using cheap safety straps, not remediating when called out on it, then cutting the tags off to hide that info shows they are reckless.

Not grounding the MD: FedEx and WAG followed suit so they are industry standard there.

Schedules and the optimizer: they’re gunna push until they see where our line is. That line is drawn by FAT calls. Flying tired is one thing but dozing off is too tired so that’s under FAT’s umbrella. Fatigue itself is different - you don’t necessarily need to be tired to be fatigued. It’s far better to call FAT if in any doubt or concern vs waiting until you know you are fatigued (which is well past the threshold anyway). We are way too conservative in calling FAT.

Document, document, document! There is only a problem when a documented trend is established. A paper trail leads to liability which effects change. This is true for fatiguing schedules, safety concerns, or straight out harassment. Have filed a report today?

You need to be pretty mindless to follow a crazy person like BK. Even his occasional valid points are completely overshadowed by his stupidity.

Just curious, are you a signal group member all worked up by your echo chamber calling everyone else sheep?

I don’t think it’s mindlessness as much as its simple attraction to rhetoric. Most of these guys don’t have a real or “from experience,” understanding of how things work with UPS so they think rewriting the rules is: 1. Possible, 2. will bring changes they seek. I wish they were right - but life is never that simple nor easy…

Haha we have reached the point in contract negotiation despair where the insult of choice is “sheep”. Come on, we will never stick it to the company with lame insults like that.

I’m not sure that comparison is accurate.
FedEx and WGA did not have access to the same information UPS did at the time. UPS had immediate access to frame-by-frame, high-definition video of the takeoff sequence from its own cameras, captured moments after the event. Yet, they still decided to let the MD continue to fly. Even on the day of the crash.

FedEx and WGA made their decisions without that level of detail. In fact, many of us were surprised when the NTSB’s first preliminary report revealed that the source of the frame-by-frame takeoff footage was UPS.

My response is not about BK but the statement. The EB approves every position. If you pi$$ off the wrong person, you will NEVER be allowed to do any union work. Even after the person is no longer part of the EB. That’s a lame argument.

Lastly, it has been pretty much proven people won’t vote for someone who hasn’t done union work. TK was the last and he has his own fan club.

For the Corvette and cell phone holster crowd, there is no harsher burn. These are the same people who get a virus trying to electronically undress Pam Bondi.

I had pics of an engine lying by the side of the runway within hours. The tug driver video (viral on the Internet within the initial hour) showed #2 was affected. What did the frame by frame change beyond confirmation of what was already obvious? Also, NTSB would have probably had access to UPS’s video pretty early on so they could have acted…and we don’t even know if that was the smoking gun that led to the grounding or just a data point confirmation after some other evidence forced their move. As I understand it, it was discovery of the fatigue cracking on the pylon that led to the grounding…

My 2 cents: an EB position is not the student council. They are responsible for our careers and the security of all of us, our families, and staff. An EB position is not a basic training ground for those wanting to serve. That’s what volunteer positions and committee chair roles do. Exceptions, sure, like having prior chair or MEC experience at previous carrier (TH on our NC being an example), or some prior corporate career that transfers, fine, but zero to hero, no way. Took me 6 yrs to get on a committee. Now I’m on 2. Looking back, yeah, I had a little growing up to do + become UPS wiser so I can see they had valid reasons for waiting and seeing about me. But to pi$$ them off and blacklist yourself you really have to be disagreeable, uncooperative, counterproductive (open aggressively critical) and/or a loose cannon. Would you want that kind of personality profile on your team?!?

Trust me, it doesn’t have to be public.

If you point out blatant issues/inconsistencies privately, you’ll be blacklisted. It’s not counterproductive, it’s holding them to what a union is supposed to do. You know, protect seniority (issue before you got to UPS)

OK, but the remedy is to let anyone who wants to volunteer, volunteer. I think we all agree they should have some discretion. If the allegation is they squash dissent and criticism, you can go on the B&G and see plenty of examples of committee chairs and Gen volunteers NOT cheerleading for the board and openly, albeit gently/discreetly/diplomatically disagreeing with things they say and do. BV has been hashed out enough over there so let’s not introduce that example and cause another 10page debate.

Another point is: how much of a problem is this? Most people who want to volunteer and show some persistence find themselves a place. I feel we are talking about the rare exceptions but portraying it as a systemic problem.

A union came to their group all enthused;

“We got the top contract in the business, 20% above anyone else, 12 weeks vacation, 35% direct contribution, all new airframes within three years, a total win! There is of course one caveat; you have to work every Tuesday!”

The whole room exploded; “This place sucks, EVERY TUESDAY!!,”

Thanks for dusting off that old chestnut. But you aren't here. It's not great, right now. As witnessed by the fact that I flew with another F/O with ~5 years of seniority a week ago who came here from Atlas, and he spent the majority of the time we were sitting up front together lamenting the fact that he'd made the switch.

I'm not miserably unhappy, but I'm also not psyched, and yeah, if I knew then what I know now, I probably would have tried to go to Delta. That said, as per the comment above, I believe that the EB will, in time, get us a contract worth voting for. IMHO, our best move now is to support them in doing so, rather than backbiting and sniping.

I’ve flown with a lot of former Atlas bros and dudettes over the years here, a couple now good friends. Not 1 of them regrets coming here vs staying at atlas. There’s things that were better there (catering or they were 74 skippers) but total package, UPS hands down according to them. 🤷‍♂️

Sure, he's an outlier, I agree. But he was pretty salty about it. TBF, I think he was a guy who was single and so had to worry about the $$$ side of things less, and therefore the QOL side more. YMMV, but I'm not making it up.

No, I believe you. Just offering what I’ve experienced..

Ive run into this mentality a few times. If you regard your job as a paid adventure and not as a sacrifice to provide an income for your household, it makes sense. However, at some point you will want to focus on life away from work and then UPS or some other non-ACMI makes more sense.

This is very accurate. The Atlas lifestyle is often misunderstood. For many of us the money was “enough” while the QOL made it all worth it. There were several niches, e.g. ANC, MIA, Training Center, etc that offered a lot of advantages. The variety of flying to include VIP, sports teams, military to include passenger appeals to some as well.

A curious phenomena occurs in that I see ex Atlas (and admittedly there are thousands) still making FB posts highlighting their flying at Atlas. More then a few have stated that it was the best flying they ever did, but as mentioned do not regret the financial advantage of moving on.

There's more than a few former regional and 91K folks that feel the same way about their former employer...

Coming here made me realize how truly well put together my previous employer was. It took a while for that to happen but I did not expect that - at all.

So, what are your take aways from this case?

You are correct, so the trick is to read the tea leaves and comprehend subtle signals, and common sense.
After we saw UPS’s reaction to the Accident, denying premiums, schedule disruptions etc etc etc, how can anybody think that it’s not time.