Negotiations
 

Well folks, it appears it’s time to settle in for the long haul vis a vis negotiations & the latest EB update. I believe this was always going to be the case & if not for the recent tragedy on property, there would’ve been some other reason for the company to decide to dig their heels in. FWIW, while I was staunchly opposed to the last extension, I do not believe that this is the time to waylay the EB. I’m prepared to give them the room they need to negotiate, knowing that should a substandard TA somehow emerge from negotiations, I will not be voting for it, regardless of any EB recommendation. In the meantime, given the company’s scheduling practices, denial of premiums, inability to pay us correctly (I guarantee UPS’s internal accounting is not so plagued with errors), general lack of civility, and stark callousness in the face of tragedy, I personally will continue to enjoy what little time I get to spend at home with my family and loved ones. While I’ve certainly disagreed with some of the decisions the EB has made recently, I am fully prepared to follow any and all direction that they give in the months and years ahead. I hope the majority of the membership agrees with this assessment. UPS was never going to give us the contract we deserve out of the goodness of their hearts. Time for us to step up and earn it.

My EB, has and will continue to, speak for me!!

Really no better way to proceed.

For all people looking to come here…

This place is a true dumpster fire, stay away. We are making Fedex look like a great job.

Our management’s own words, we are not an airline and proud to be different (different in every way from an airline).

The only thing in common we have with an airline is we fly planes, that’s it. And now as we are seeing, the two extensions are exacerbating, compounding the deep problem.

I wouldn’t tell anyone not to come here, and that’s coming from someone with serious buyer’s remorse. Only reason I say that is because I watched others say the same thing on the SWA forums during their negotiations and apparently a few people passed up a good opportunity. Now listening to strangers on the internet isn’t a good idea as we all know.

I will say to anyone thinking about coming here to do your homework, from 1st year pay all the way to what schedules you’ll be flying during your last year here. The pedestal that we were on post 9/11 and during the lost decade is gone. Might or might not happen again but a lot has changed.

All of this is before I get to the fact that we’ve had 3 fatal accidents within the past 15yrs. At this point i think it can be argued that we have a systemic safety issue and until it’s addressed we’ll keep adding plaques in the ASC. Sounds dramatic but it’s something for prospective new hires to think about.

All I can say to my fellow IPA’ers is to take care of each other. Most if not all of us still have healing wounds even if you didn’t know any of the individuals on 2976, and unfortunately some of those wounds will be reopened if the CVR is released and when the final report is released.

I spent 30 yrs at UPS. Best job I ever had, worst place I have ever worked. I spent 20 yrs on the MD-11, absolutely a wonderful aircraft. I knew the crew of 2976 very well. Flew with them over the years and had many great conversations with them. It is so very sad for them and there families.

How would you feel if we were in this exact same position right now, but making approx 20% less?

I cant confidently say that'd be the case anymore than you can say we'd have a Rockstar new contract.

May be best to focus on the now than casting stones about the past based on impossible predictions.

Physics says if you lean forward enough, you fall on your face.

I dont think we have a safety issue, rather than we work for a company that doesnt priorotize safety at all. They just love to throw that word around while practicing anything but.

For a decade I was on the "come to UPS, its great" train, but my eyes are open now. I dont believe anyone should come here unless circumstances dictate it. What UPS is doing would be considered unprecedented in any legacy carrier. Dont forget theyre "proud to be different".

That phrase should really hit home as to who we work for.

I think we are way beyond the point of blaming the people who pick up OT or JAs for the situation we find ourselves in. You can’t find a crappy South Florida 135 operator with the death toll we have. The abuse of our contract by our employer is staggering. The daily harassment on expenses is in a league of its own. Add to that catering f-ups, payroll f-ups, hotel f-ups. The harassment of the pilot group by managers for the most mundane “infractions”. Allowing jets to fly after engines fall off. Contract negotiations grinding to a halt. Line holder schedule changes happening on a near daily basis with minimal penalty to the company. Every piece of technology we interact with is the worst possible solution available. And the list goes on. To blame all this on guys picking up trios is absolutely insane. The place we work at absolutely sucks right now. This job is f-ing terrible right now. For the 60 plus/30 year plus crowd waiting on an A plan bump….it ain’t happening anytime soon. So GTFO before they kill you too. I really hope things change but right now it looks bleak.

And Confucius says if you lean forward enough, you’ll get violated from behind. Wait, maybe that wasn’t Confucius. Might’ve been my Italian cousin in Queens. Anyhoo, sage advice.

Not sure how you can say that about the MD-11. One of the absolute worst airplanes ever manufactured. Its safety record alone speaks for itself. You have a 10X greater chance of a hull loss in a MD vs 747/777. And that is not even an apples to apples comparison. The 777 hull losses, except for the BA in LHR, were either terrorism or pilot error. The MD? Not so much. I wish they would put that thing out to pasture. It has killed far too many people.

This says a lot. Just flew with 3 captains, on my JS, that were all on JA's. They had all been here less than 10 years, complaining about not getting a contract and how the schedules are sooooo bad. I just rolled my eyes and did not say a word.
Too many people say one thing. Do the opposite.

You should have not kept your opinions and thoughts to yourself.

They sure didn't.

Don't go down that road without union guidance. I simply tell them what I am and am not willing to do. Do not tell them what they should be doing. That may lead down a very unfriendly road.

I never said tell others what to do. I am not sure where you got that?

Telling them what to do, no. Voicing your point of view in a respectful manner, sure. Their feelings may get hurt, who cares. Union leadership isn’t going to hold your hand.

my mistake.

13.K.9, last sentence.

No worries :)

I figure that Atlas, kalitta, and that one with the maple leaf are flying all the JAs we are passing up.

If everyone stopped picking up JAs, what would it do? Right now they can contract as much as they want. They will just contract more, we will lose more flying. Right now it’s 15 jets, they can easily find 15/20 more. Then we are getting sued by the company for a work action, how will that look to the mediator? The boxes will move regardless of JAs or not. Just a matter of who is doing the flying, an IPA pilot, a management pilot or an Atlas pilot. I would say fly as much as you want while they can subcontract as much as they can

That is unfortunately what I took from the previous video by BT since he addressed it directly, which was surprising.

Better wear Kevlar if you suggest that on the b&g

Well that’s the problem.

I actually like working here and like the cargo side of the industry. And if I’m going to fly cargo, this is still the place to be in my view. Am I annoyed by the recent shenanigans by the company? Yes. But I’m also confident our NC is going to get through this fight with an industry leading contract. Call me naive, but I think they will get the job done.

Fear. Uncertainty. Doubt.

Nearly every sentence in this argument assumes the company has unlimited freedom, unlimited subcontract capacity, and unlimited legal leverage — and that the pilot group has none.

“They’ll just contract more.”

They already are. That’s not a new threat — it’s the status quo. If the answer to subcontracting pressure is always “fly more so they don’t do it,” then the company has discovered a permanent cheat code: delay the contract indefinitely while pilots self-police their own leverage.

“We’ll lose more flying.”

Flying is already being lost. JAs don’t create subcontracting authority — management decisions do. Treating voluntary overtime as the dam holding back subcontracting is exactly the mindset the company benefits from.

“We’ll get sued for a work action.”

Declining voluntary flying is not a work action. No one is advocating sick-outs, slow-downs, or contract violations. Framing normal pilot choice as legally perilous is pure fear-based rhetoric.

“How will that look to the mediator?”

Mediators understand leverage. They also understand incentives. A pilot group absorbing unlimited extra flying while past amendable sends exactly one message: delay is profitable.

And yes — the boxes will move. They always do. The question isn’t whether the boxes move, it’s who bears the cost of keeping the system propped up while the company drags its feet.

Voluntary JAs are just that — voluntary. Choosing not to pick them up isn’t sabotage, it isn’t extremism, and it isn’t disloyalty. It’s pilots recognizing that time past amendable has a price — and that price is currently being paid entirely by the pilot group.

I agree with part of what you’re saying. I like the cargo side of the industry. And if I’m going to fly cargo, this is still the place to be — which is exactly why this situation matters.But calling what the company has been doing “shenanigans” is minimizing it to the point of distortion. Shenanigans implies harmless mischief. What we’ve seen since 2976 is a deliberate, strategic delay that saves the company millions while costing the pilot group millions. That’s not a word choice issue — that’s an accountability issue.

Same with calling this whole thing an “annoyance.” For some of us, this isn’t an annoyance. It’s lost compensation, lost leverage, and lost time we never get back. Every single day past amendable has a price tag attached to it, and that price is being paid by the pilot group, not the company.

We’re roughly 100 days past amendable now. That’s not noise. That’s not impatience. That’s real money.I also hope the NC gets us an industry-leading contract. I truly do. But history says “industry-leading” is usually fleeting. By the time this gets ratified, the legacies will already be lining up for their next round, and we’ll once again be locked into a long Section 6 stretch playing catch-up a decades after this contract.

That doesn’t mean the NC isn’t working hard. It means time matters — and delay is not neutral. Delay has a winner and a loser.

So yes, I’m frustrated. Not because I lack faith in the process — but because minimizing what’s happening as mere “shenanigans” or an “annoyance” glosses over the very real cost being borne by the pilot group every single day we wait.

The company does have unlimited freedom. In the last 4 months what has been stopped???? Nothing. Do I need to go through the list again? They change your schedule daily, they subcontract as much as they want, they don’t pay you correctly, they randomly change bid packets, they don’t do maintenance that cause planes to crash, your catering is screwed, your hotels are screwed, they don’t pay premiums, cancel commercials. They do whatever the F they want to do and there is absolutely NOTHING we can do. Again, you think if guys stop flying extra that will fix em. Read the JA list, there are probably 100/150 recurring names on there. That’s like 3/4%.

There are things you can do. Decline revisions (outside of 36 hours) when they refuse to pay the relevant premiums because the MD is grounded. Make your labor as expensive as possible. I have no problem with declining a revision today and working a JA tomorrow. If they revise your trip within 36 hours and you are fighting through fatigue to complete a much more exhausting trip than you bid, make the call in LBB or wherever. Sure, it sucks to get stuck out longer than planned, but that is language the company understands. The EB and NC are doing their best, but you don’t need to kill yourself moving boxes. The legal process will work itself out with regard to the company trampling the contract. In the meantime, don’t make yourself into a hostage or a statistic.

Negotiations
 

Management here sucks, truly dishonest! With all the shenanigans they have been pulling lately guys are still doing them favors, I just don’t get it.

They recently asked us to waive our duty day by 10 minutes, captain replied sorry can’t do it due to the MD-11 situation. Best reply I’ve heard to date.

You seem to be stating two different things here. Contracted flying is not something that happens quickly. To subcontract a 767/747, whatever, takes a little time and is very expensive at the moment. Think medium to long term solution to a problem for contractors. This takes a little planning and coordination. Picking up OT and J/A's is more a short term and emergency solution. This is where our pilots step in.

It not specific to OT/JA's. It's waiving the contract as an example. It is amazing how unscrupulous schedulers are with this. Almost every time I get a scheduling advisement there is a contract violation in there somewhere. Everyone gets electronic advisements these days. Once you acknowledge you are waiving the contract. Most people do this completely unaware. I never acknowledge those. I always call and ask if the advisement is contractual. You would be amazed at what our CS'ers see when they put stuff on our lines. Any violation comes up in RED with the "new" program. Of course what happens when they tell me where the violation is, I refuse as its non contractual. A supervisor comes on and tells me to "fly and grieve", which unfortunately is the stance the union takes. So that is what happens. I end up flying anyway, but a grievance is filed on the contract violation. Is this a pain on my part? Yes. I only hope it "helps" us put an end to much of the nonsense that is happening to our schedules these days.

Don't get me started about payroll.

My point is there is VERY little that can be done by the membership to help us get a new contract. OT/JA's, contract compliance. Grievance's. ER and ASAP's. Fly the contract. Don't fly fatigued. Really about it. IF you want to fly OT or JA's it is totally fine. It's contractual, but complaining about not getting a contract and the schedules, then doing the very thing that prevents the group from getting a contract is all I tried to point out.

That is not accurate.

Would love to see a Friday fact on this. I’ve heard the opposite from some very trusted sources. Like many things these days, it probably depends on how UPS is interpreting our CBA on any given day. Given the fact that they repeatedly wipe their backsides with it, I’m inclined to err on the side of caution.

While I agree that it is not supposed to work this way, I have started to habitually call scheduling so I can ask the question. If you are in a rush to sign in for a trip and there is a non-contractual scheduling advisory you have to acknowledge and don’t have time to actually read until after you get to your layover, do you think scheduling is just going to roll over and say that’s okay? If they opted to stiff you for your premiums on changes to a trip more than 36 hours out you are now stuck flying and grieving. If you called and asked (instead of acknowledging the advisement) you would have the option to decline the trip. The current shenanigans have basically made electronic acknowledgment of advisements, inadvisable.

No idea what fleet/seat you are on but the international side it is probably north of 90% of the advisements you receive. Doesnt matter to me. I don't ever answer on a layover or on days off unless it's in my contractual contact period.

As far as contractual, I find far more violations that not in these advisements.

The contactable period means they can contact you. It does not mean you are obligated to have your phone on you.

Not picking up OT and JA’s does cause disruptions, extra work, and service failures. Please don’t be delusional about this to justify your greed.dot Period……when the system starts to bog down and service failures occur, Atlanta pays attention…

And how somebody can get the impression from Bob’s video, that it’s OK to keep feeding at the trough is amazingly tone-deaf. UPS is slow rolling negotiations, claiming “ we’re different” maxing out our schedules, exploiting the accident to subcontract more, denying premiums, and building horrible lines, but “It’s OK to lean forward and help them out, because He never said Not to” ???.?.

Exactly......................

it’s not tone deaf. It is exactly what he said in the previous video and didn’t address it in the latest video.

BT said there was no “whisper” campaign and the EB would let everyone know when it was time. He hasn’t said it’s time even while lamenting the pace of negotiations.

You can’t say trust and follow the EB then ignore his statement. If it would not have been addressed, sure, but BT directly addressed it. I don’t agree with it, but you are a hypocrite if you say follow the EB then blast those who fly extra.