So upgrade to Captain in 23 years was an unrealistic career expectation?

Shaggy,
What Lineslug said. I don't know Cactus Crew's background, other than he said he doesn't expect to upgrade to Captain before he retires. As Lineslug stated, if he chose to do twenty years AD, then it's hard to complain about his future chances of upgrading to captain. In Cactuscrews case that didn't apply.
No grenade lob intended on my part.

That depends on the airline, the industry at any particular time, unforeseen catastrophic events, retirement age changes, and a host of other factors. I would hope 23 years would not be unrealistic, but every year that one is qualified and able to take a major airline position, but chose not to on their own accord, it decreases their chances of it happening. One rolls the dice and takes their chances, and depending on chance it could work out better either way.

Good point but everyone hired at FDX and ups today did not have that expectation when they were hired. And the contracts at both carriers were written assuming that everyone would have the chance to upgrade by the 15 year point. That is what is different.

That seems like an unusual pension/A-Fund. Most airlines with pensions take the highest 5 consecutive years, and plug in the formula (multiplier x years of service) to arrive at the pension benefit. So a pilot having a high 5 average of $200K/yr. would get the same benefit regardless of whether they were a Capt. or FO.

You make a valid point as well regarding the expectation, but expectation, assumptions, and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. ;-)
The slowdown in growth and hiring, and especially the age 65 rule changed the assumptions dramatically. Hopefully both of our new contracts will address this retirement disparity. Personally if we can get our A plan to even resemble yours, I'll gladly punch early and let someone else have the opportunity for the left seat.

Thank you Sherlock.

Your welcome, Felicia

Isn't that part of rolling the dice? There is no right or wrong decision in any of this. Or in anything. There is only the decision you make at that moment based on whatever is going on in your life. And it is therefore the right decision, for you, at that moment. Nobody put a gun to anyone's head to go to any company.

And none of us will know if we made the lifelong, "right", decision until we retire. Anyone hired at TWA, Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff and so on....in the 70's, thought their life was made. They made the decision...the, "right", decision at that time in their lives.

I left as a senior 747 captain at my previous airline to come to UPS and start all over again. For me personally, after getting beat up for 6 years after getting out of the military, when I came to UPS, honestly....HONESTLY...the last thing I thought of was captain upgrade. I didn't care. I gave value to working for the largest shipping company in the world. I gave value to the security of working for a company as close to working for the US government as you can get. I was tired and admittedly scared of an industry that offered zero stability. UPS offered the best roll of the dice for me.

A company does not exist for my benefit. And UPS certainly isn't any different.

My sim partner at my previous airline....hired at Pan Am in the early 70's if I remember right, was furloughed from Pan Am for SIXTEEN YEARS. 16. He was brought back after furlough, retrained to proficiency, and flew until the airline was shut down. He ran out of time before retirement and never upgraded to captain at that carrier.

This industry, like any industry, doesn't owe us anything. It's rough and tumble all over. You can try your best to meet your, "expectation", but there are no crystal balls for any of us.

For those feeling that they will never upgrade...the 20-25%....I mean, I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, there are many more, "buts", than there are agreements. I do understand. But.....how happy were you to come to UPS to begin with? I'd venture happy. The legacies are hiring. If you're that unhappy...THAT UNHAPPY here...like...its affecting your life, then you should take the initial monetary hit and roll the dice. Because it is a roll of the dice. You have no idea what will happen in this world that changes the whole scenario overnight. And as far as my broken crystal ball says...if I could venture a guess, you won't be any happier wherever you go.

And my firm advice based on my broken crystal ball is to stay right where you're at. Give value to the stability of the company you work for. And realize that the bottom 10% of seniority is at risk anywhere. And I feel more at risk at the pax carriers.

And above anything else...be happy. It could be A LOT worse. A lot. Give value to what you've got. It is considerable.

I understand and agree completely with the not-so-hidden B scale of retirement. Yet another tool used by UPS to divide the more senior (captains) vs less senior f/o's. Don't think for a second that UPS isn't smart enough to see the long term divisiveness of this B scale formula. If UPS spent as much time calculating their business model as they did fighting with us....the sky would be the limit. But they choose to fight instead. And yes....this would be typically part of the way UPS plays with their labor.

In closing, I am trying to help the disenfranchised. Another thing we all know is that timing is everything in life. If you are caught in that vortex of, "bad timing", the world can look pretty dark....until you realize and accept your life and choices. And give value to the good instead of focusing on the bad. There is a lot of value of the good here at UPS. Mainly stability and a good paycheck. Good guys/gals to fly with. The rest hopefully can be water off a ducks back. Hopefully I'm not coming off as pontificating. I really am trying to illuminate the value of what you have, regardless of upgrade capability. Maybe I lose credibility because I am a captain. Keep in mind...a junior captain....for the remainder of my UPS career if things continue as they are. But I elected to re-upgrade. So that's on me.

I just hope that the reader(s) don't sum it all up by saying, "at least you had the option to upgrade". I guess at that point I failed to get my point across.

If the not-so-hidden B scale of retirement was fixed, would that change your perception of the heinous possibility of never upgrading? If so, make sure the negotiating committee knows it. That's step one. And I'm sure they do.

Best of luck.

Agree with Lineslug, we all had expectations when we were young but as we mature we know these expectations change and become a reality. I do disagree with many of you on the chance of never upgrading @ UPS. The pilot group will basically turn over in approximately 10-12 years. So for those f/o that are jr and age 47 & younger, will have a good seniority.