Personally I think it is rude to have to scroll 17 screens on my iPhone 6+ to see "you rock dude".

^^^

Exactly. We all know which post you are referring to. It's just annoying and lazy.

Shaggy,



We have talked before and my distinct first impression on meeting you was that while being aggressive on your viewpoints and were readily willing to express those viewpoints, I didn't disagree with what you were saying. And also thought that you were very well spoken in what you were saying.



I'm curious to know why you think you're pretty much locked in? Yes yes...the age old discussion of taking the money hit on starting over in a very bass ackwards system of not being able to take your experience and jump in at another carrier with your expertise and slot right in with seniority and seat. Everyone rolls their eyes at that (excuse). Unfortunately, we don't have a national seniority list.

I don't consider you in the same boat as Elato Direct, ANC74 or UPSpilott (I know who he is....that was pretty easy to find). People that really do need to consider a change in employment venue. Life is too short and at the end of the day, money isn't everything. Because their level of unhappiness goes beyond money. They are putting money before their wellbeing. And that level of hatred will kill you. Nobody is locked in anywhere.

I don't consider you in the same boat because you are a lot more reasoned in your responses. Not to mention your recent activities demonstrating you are a stand up guy. Well done.

Everyone has a back story as Vito recently laid out on another thread. 80-90% of us went through something somewhere in our lives professionally. 100% if you include personally. Because it's just a matter of time before we all have to take a bite of the $hyte sandwich.

You don't seem to have that level of hatred as the others mentioned. But if you do.....why are you locked in? And equally to that point.....do you really think it would be any better at any other carrier? Talk to your buds across the industry. None of them are totally happy. Most in some way or another are revolted. Maybe at SWA or Delta or FedEx they are not revolted revolted....but there are probably things that tick them off pretty good that the company does. And they turn a blind eye to it.

People can either choose to look at the glass half full or half empty. They can choose to zero in on a few things that totally enrage them. Believing that their integrity is being steamrolled. And then you've jumped ship, only to find out that your just as miserable at the next place.

Things will get better here. I was on the panel here for 3.5 years with no prospects in sight. I didn't dwell on it. Did lose a marriage over it though. Wife couldn't quit working because she felt we weren't making enough money. Second year pay if I remember as an FE was $45/hour? Can't remember but wasn't that much. It took me 11 years to upgrade. I would like to think that you will have similar progression. Maybe not the exact 11 years to upgrade. But close. And in the meantime you're making way more money than I ever was in those early years.

Things as you know in life have a way of working themselves out. I don't think it is any different here. And as you also know, timing is everything.

I feel that for people that are that desperately miserable, they are not locked in anywhere. I just caution....is it going to be better anywhere else?

Come to work. Do your job. Go home and enjoy your life. It will be shortened immeasurably if anyone lets this stuff eat them up. And no, its not easy for me to say. As with Vito, I've been there. My backstory.....I don't even like to think about it. But it was painful.

What year were you hired to get Captain at 11 years? Did you ever lose that upgrade when the age 65 came to be?

For lurkers:

Many bypass for variety of good reasons. Always have. 113 FO's were hired in 1995 or earlier and probably will upgrade at age 64 to get Captain retirement. A total of 383 FO's are bypassing captain at this time to include those with a date of September 2000. Junior UPS Captain in training has a hire date of late September 2000. (14.5 year upgrade)

1995-1998 folks generally took 10-11 years for first available Captain upgrade award.
Parking DC-8, 747, market decline in 2008 and 09 and Age 60 (numerous over 60 S/O's) that contractually displaced back to Captain seat pushing the late 95 and junior Captains group off the Captain seat or required a bid to ANC seat to hold left.
I'm guessing if want first available left seat will be current to "15-16" at current conditions for the 2001 crewmembers. Speculative beyond that as more variables to the equation that renders it 'speculative' presently.

MD11Simnerd,
To answer part of your question, I was hired in Jan 95, took the first available F/O upgrade in June 1996, and awarded a Captain bid in Jan of 2005, finished training in Aug 2005 as Capt (training center was backed up pretty badly in 05) Due to age 65 and economy, post 2008 crash, I was downgraded to F/O in May 2010 and re-upgraded to Capt in Jan 2012 which was first available.

Hired '96. Upgraded '07. Downgraded '10. Upgraded '13. So 3.5 years on the panel, 14 years right seat. About 17.5 years not in the captain seat. Probably more like 16.5-17 when you parse the months.

Someone posted about inflation; ie, hourly today not giving the buying power as was 20 years ago. Partially true. However, remember, the last contract we had fixed the hidden B scale for f/o's. Once upgrading to f/o from the panel, "back in the day", with 1-3 years on the property, f/o pay was based on a percentage of captain pay as always. Say was 66% of captain pay. The problem was there was no 1-3 year captains; therefore, captain hourly was very low and nobody really noticed it. This resulted in a hidden B scale for the f/o's. That was fixed in the last contract. F/o's today get a very nice raise their second year and continues from there. So the inflation factorial is partially true. But the other reality is that f/o's today make much more, even if accounting for inflation, than they did before. That hidden B scale went until about 9th year.

Respect your, Vito's, Salty's and other senior (at least to us) pilots' perspectives. I also agree with your $$ analysis. I was merely trying to point out that the pay disparities between then and now aren't as huge as one would think. Eliminating the B scale was a fantastic achievement without a doubt. ...at the very least it corrected a huge error from (a) previous contract(s).

The dissatisfaction here boils down to the fact many of us won't ever upgrade. It's not pessimism but rather realism. Most of us were older when we joined brown compared to the previous groups. I view myself as an optimistic person and as you can see from my previous posts, overall I'm happy here. However I don't foresee ever upgrading here at brown and it stings. Granted I've had plenty of pic flying at a previous gig but the fact this probably is as good as it gets simply sux. A double-whammy - for many of us a permanent fo seat AND because of it we'll also receive a smaller, fo pay based pension. :-(
So someone can spend 16-18 years at bigbrown and retire with an fo pension. I view the current captain versus fo pension as the secondary B-scale, and it's not very "hidden." I believe the pension should be based on longevity and not the seat.

Either way, I and everyone else will be just fine. I simply ask for your understanding that no, we don't necessarily see things the way you do and probably never will. I'd imagine you feel the same way about us.

In unity,
WS

This is true. A significant percentage of IPA pilots will be unable to upgrade prior to reaching mandatory retirement age. It has been a few years since I did the math with the seniority list, but it is in the ballpark of 20-25%. I just hope they had the opportunity to save for retirement prior to coming to UPS.

Thanks,

I was Sept 2000, held 74 in ANC in 2007, and lost it before I trained. As of last bid, there are 2 Captains junior to me, 75 SDF and A-300 from the last system bid (we will see how that goes). Rumors of base openings and mega-bids, for a given set of flights, new domiciles reduce the number of crews to staff a bid package......