ALPA merger policy and arbitration. As the United guys learned....an arbitrator does not have to follow the merger policy. The unions follow it in negotiations. The bottom line is when you go to arbitration that means you failed and now an arbitrator has to figure it out. They can use all, some or none of the merger policy. If they choose to use the merger policy, they can interpret and weigh the policy however they want. In their minds....you failed and this is what you get and there’s nothing you can do about it. They can do whatever the heck they want to be honest. Just ask United about the arbitrator’s 787 decision. So if you’re hanging your hat on an arbitrator following the policy...get ready to be surprised...or disappointed.

Hard to not go to arbitration... if the merging MECs agree to anything, no matter how reasonable, some folks on both sides would likely blame them for "selling out". Tough position.

I don’t see any other way.

Bingo.

All postulation. One thing is for certain after going thru three negotiations, no amount of speculation or *****ing changes one thing.
Usually just affects ones own happiness and production.

Your assumptions are off... But yes some groups at each company are going to cry “foul”. There is a large group at VX that would benefit significantly from a DH integration. VX negotiators are definitely putting putting the career of the top 50-150 in front of the majority. We will see how that works out. Come on you can’t have it both ways. So putting a 79 hire with a 07 is fair but a 2010 hire can’t be near a 2012 hire. Half of the VX pilots will end up in the top 50-58 percent of the new seniority list. That is more then fair. VX pilots seniority in current base will move forward unharmed, in position and status.

A FA walking through the C Concourse gave me the SLI numbers.

>23 percent of VX pilots either have PNW addresses on file or proximity is closer to address on file.

How does this destroy unity. Soon we will all look at numbers and they will be final. So pretending this is not going to happen builds unity?

This entire thread is moot and irrelevant, SLI, just like the JCBA is going to arbitration and it will be just another thing that both pilot groups complain about from years to come.

To the pit of misery we go!

B*tching all the way. Pointlessly.

Proudly all Boeing...
first one to learn:

aborted engine start (before start lever raised to idle)

Start switch off

look at the last 4 Seniority list integrations, SWA & Airtran being a rare exception, and you will see how this is going to go... ever heard of ‘relative seniority’...😉

Your source is a FA in C Concourse?

Don't mind that this merger has more in common with SWA than any other...

Don't mind the notable fact that it SWA/AT was not ALPA/ALPA.

I'm taking a stab here that was tongue in cheek, eh?

The new policy states that the factors that must be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, now include but are not limited to career expectations, longevity, and status and category.
The new merger policy mandates that merger representa- tives, mediators, and arbitrators must consider these factors when constructing a seniority list; however, they are also free to consider other factors as they deem appropriate.

Do you guys realize how ambiguous this language is. How much elasticity exists in this language for an arbiter. Your insistence and utter fixation on one “must” and total obfuscation of another “must”, displays your lack of understanding. The arbiters are not novices. They understand our company’s, our industry, our careers as a whole inside and out. They know what a legacy, and start up are. They know what is a financially strong company and what is a week. They knew UAL and CAL, DAL and NWA were equals, just like you and I. They also know the difference between AS and VX as much as you may pretend not too. That’s why an arbiter asks, “what did your company bring to this merger?” Well sir 65 plus air buses, and a really hip vibe.... Ok but you brought a tone of debt, no real assets, a company just starting to creat black balance sheets, low yield, bottom of the industry compensation package.
You guys can act surprised, tell us how great Virgin was, but deep down each of you knew before the ink was dry how the SLI would work out. The truth is in the end you got huge raises and almost the exact same base position.... pretty darn fair if you ask me.

Man, you must be scared ****less, probably because you “know” but don’t want to accept it... time will tell😉

I honestly wish you guys all the best 320... I already gave you the SLI. It will be validated in a few months and at that time you might even appreciate the heads up I gave you. Your union can try and get you all worked up, blow a bunch of your raise, roping the wind but nothing will change. In the end your base position will move forward unencumbered. We will all be fine... cheers

No you gave the AS proposal from negotiations, and in doing so you or whoever gave you the info violated the NDA. The SLI is going to arbitration, which has not even started yet. Move along troll.

AJ anytime someone has lost the argument they get angry and move from facts and to personal assaults.

If you could have only seen the look on your negotiating teams face this past week. They have over the past four meetings quikly realized this is not NWA and DAL. They looked as though they had seen a ghost. Do you know who our attorney is? Look him up, he has wone everything he has touched. You know why, he is reasonable and has a nack for asking for what is fair.
In the end you maybe angry about the outcome of this SLI. I expect to hear many on your side threaten to quit and go somewhere else. By January you will all have realized nothing has changed, everything is fine. Your big win was the gigantic pay raise you recieved this past fall. And no with your old companies finances and profit margins you would have never recieved a 185- 259 (40%) pay raise.

If this is what you say it is, why waste our time and money with an arbitrator? Let’s just release it now and move on.

Don't feed the troll. It starts from zero in arbitration.

The pit of misery, Dilly Dilly!

Just an FYI, nobody at UAL/CAL moved more than 5% in relative seniority, even with United having a big advantage or WB planes (777 and 747). That's why our CAL 06 hires are paired with some UAL 98 hires, etc. The bottom 1/3 of the CAL list was hired after virtually the entire UAL list.

That was with Longevity weighted as 35%. I'd be shocked to find out your 50% mid seniority pilots to be more than 10% apart in the final award.

[QUOTE=svergin;2515025]Just an FYI, nobody at UAL/CAL moved more than 5% in relative seniority, even with United having a big advantage or WB planes (777 and 747). That's why our CAL 06 hires are paired with some UAL 98 hires, etc. The bottom 1/3 of the CAL list was hired after virtually the entire UAL list.

I know, I know... UAL and CAL were similar companies, with equal footing. That’s why they were merged that way... VX and AS are not... The arbiter even made this distinction. Ask your merger committee. We didn’t get a deal because your merger committee could never sign off on the logical outcome off this SLI...( although the reality finally seemed to be sinking in) Pure and simple, it has to be awarded in arbitration.

Believe what you want... I am a liar... I am an idiot. We are starting at “zero in arbitration ”, whatever that means. All the VX guys on top, AS stapled to the bottom. Relative seniority, whatever fantasy works best for you. You have 6 months to enjoy your alternative reality, live there as long as you can, I guess

[QUOTE=Mea25000;2515111]Yes, Mea, you are an idiot.

I don't believe you are a liar nor an idiot. No matter where any of us shake out on any future list and no matter what that might look like down the road. It will not change what you are.

You a small, mean spirited, divisive, self-serving, self aggrandizing, ego-maniacal ass. You elevate yourself by touting "inside" information at every opportunity and use that to inflame, divide, poke fun of, and otherwise denigrate your fellow pilots for your own bloviating sense of self-satisfaction. You enjoy creating disharmony and conflict at every turn at a time where it is least needed or wanted.

I hope you enjoy your juvenile moments in the spotlight on an obscure and often ridiculous ***** board.

If you are indeed a pilot for this new airline, which I doubt, I am ashamed to share this profession with you. You are an embarrassment to the profession and to Alaska Airlines.

Bravo! Well said.

I'd be more upset about the new uniform than how the SLI is going to play out.

[QUOTE=Mea25000;2515111]I thought Alaska and Virgin America pilots were in mediation, not arbitration. Seeing that you can't tell the difference between the two, and somehow seemed to have gained inside information which should have never happened, as well as not realize that when UAL and CAL merged, the arbitrator found that CAL needed to merge to survive:
Also pointed out in the conclusion, you seem to not realize that Virgin America wasn't in need of merging. They were growing, as was Alaska, and Alaska outbid JetBlue to make sure to be the owner and win the west. VX was never a dying or weaker airline, with 10 airframes on order with 60 options for 2020. This was in the UAL/CAL decision as well:
http://ual.alpa.org/LinkClick.aspx?f...t=aW2PEPbXqsk=


P.S. If you don't wanna seem like a sad guy, being berated by other pilots as you seem to think to have superior knowledge to everyone on this board, maybe just stick to lurking if you can't back up your claims.

Reggie I would like to think everything you wrote is untrue. If you knew the content of my life, I think you would be very surprised of who I am. Maybe your right though but I sincerely hope not. My guess by your reaction is you were hired early on at VX and now are unhappy about how this SLI will turn out. If you were hoping to unfairly acquire your current seniority in a PNW base, then you really are just throwing a tantrum. If you think the outcome of this SLI will inhibit your current position in base in anyway, you are mistaken... Nothing will change, you will get the trips you want, the vacation you want. The only thing you will not be getting is a windfall out of your current three bases.
My message is simple... everyone is going to be ok. I will not be the #1 CA in SFO and you will not be the #1 CA in SEA. That is neither divisive nor mean

The SLI is a pretty big deal, I think sharing information is something most people want, most people would like to know what is going on.

Yes, we were in mediation and our mediator is now the lead arbiter.

I have recieved a significant number of private massages from more the a dozen VX pilots. All but one seemed thankful for any information. All of them conversed with me like adults. Everyone seemed like really great guys.
Good luck Reggie I hope everything works out well for you. My guess is you are a great guy.

To bad the same can’t be said about you!

Why?
Because I told you how the SLI would pan out... And you don’t like it so you are going to take your ball, go home, and throw a tantrum as you leave

That's a lot of words and a lot of assumptions based on who knows what. I am older than most, far from senior and have zero interest in the PNW. Not that it matters. You apparently do not understand what I said. Not surprising, you do not listen. I said nothing about the merger other than it does not matter and you may well be right.

No, I would not be surprised at who you are.

I was speaking to YOU. I was speaking to who YOU show yourself to be based on the way you choose to behave in every single discussion in which you bring your condescending "I'm in the know" "I'm the smartest guy in the room" tone. You speak down to anyone and everyone. I care not what you have or think you have in your life. The way you choose to treat others will come home to roost, it is part of who you are and it will not serve you well if you don't figure that out. You know the guy in the crew room everyone else looks at and wonders how he has so deceived himself into thinking he is smart and respected? You are that guy. You are the know it all guy that people talk about. You are the guy that we shake our heads at. You are the butt of jokes in the classroom. You can delude yourself in to believing it is just here online, but it is not.

It is a lack of character, discretion, and maturity.

You are that guy.

Anyone claiming to know how the SLI will play out has no real credibility. They may or may not be in the know but APC sure isn't the place to post insider information.
In regards to VX pilots' windfall, it's 100% true. You have to give Mea some credit because he's right on. VX pilots would have never negotiated a 40% pay raise on their own to begin with. Many VXers claim that this is their 4th+ airline but why is that? Let's face it, many who ended up at VX are undesirables and the rest were using VX as a stepping stone. A normal person with an average or better IQ doesn't choose VX over the big boys and/or Alaska. VXers can cry all they want but you guys scored BIG. To reiterate, windfall=40%+ pay raise, a 401K worth a damn, and a job. You all could have just gone the way of Aloha. Accept reality and move on.

Wow. Another clearly ignorant post. Timing in this industry is everything. Timing dictates careers, not being desirable or undesirable. Many carriers failed when no one but VX was really hiring. That doesn’t make those pilots undesirable. And pilots have very little to do with how well or poorly a company does. Anyone with any experience in the airlines knows these basic truths.

Not at all. I said to bad the same could not be said of you because you don’t treat anyone like an adult. You keep proving my point every time you post.

All fine and dandy till JFK closes now it’s fubar

40%??? Not even 30% was the reality and less than 50% in profit sharing compared to last year. And whatever that performance payout thing is, it’s less than 30% of what we use to get. The good thing is we get to look forward to a massive decrease in time at home and lot more time staying in hotels. So there’s always an upside to everything.

Timing is important but it isn't everything. I could have gone to VX and some of my FOs and others from the regionals did. It's a choice. The excuse of "no one but VX was hiring" is poor at best and you know it. The marketable and able bodied were getting hired at more desirable airlines, hence the word "undesirables". Regardless of how and why you ended up at VX, it matters no more. This discussion is about windfall and VXers got a big one.

Well when I got hired at vx allegiant was hiring, and of course now I realize I should have gone there. 20/20.