ANC average days off in hard lines = 14.15

LAX average days off in hard lines = 14.96

PDX average days off in hard lines = 15.23

SEA average days off in hard lines = 14.69

Maybe I’m wrong but seniority is meant to control schedule and protect from furlough. That’s it. We don’t exactly have awesome schedules to work with in the first place - on the boeing side at least. Seems like we need to stop worrying about SLI and start considering the fact that the problem isn’t seniority, it’s the schedules and work rules that are the problem. Those can get fixed. But they won’t if pilots are blaming pilots for their crappy schedule. Seniority will be what it’s going to be, best to look ahead to fix the real issues. That’s my 2 cents as
someone hired after the merger.

That amount of days off is an absolute embarrassment! That's average so 12 days off must be around 70% of the lines??? How is that even close to ok with you people??

These averages shown do not tell the whole story since most lines are non-commutable and you’ll loose, depending on number of trips, at least another 4-6 to commuting! Total crap... I get 17 days off now and commute mostly the same day out and back, so 17 days are “True” Days off!!!

But I thought Alaska’s line bidding was superior to VX’s horrible pbs.

Not 70%. I THINK it’s closer to 10%-12%. It starts at 12 and goes up through 20 I believe.

You may want to check your math the lines suck $#&@% *&/$$@#
And ther amount of 12 day lines is way to high along with that stupid 48 hour deal. For the life of me I can’t see how you accepted that as good.

It’s the pairing construction that needs fixing. PBS vs. Line bidding has little to do with average days off.

Yes I get that but still. I’d rather have pbs with junk pairings than line bidding with junk pairings.

So, I went and looked to see what it actually was, in SEA out of 392 lines it’s 27 lines with 12 days off. That comes out to 6.8877ish % (if I’m doing math correctly).

Also, I never said it was “good.” I just wanted to give reliable info. I think the best course of action is for pilots to be unified and look towards the future in order to affect change where we can, and hopefully make things better for everyone.

That’s 27 lines too many. How many had less than 16... This is a career airline right with pilots who want to see there families for more than half the month??!

Make sure you tell that to management; they'll be glad for us to willingly give up whatever leverage we have going into the next negotiations.

If the company starts mixing the VX/AS route structure the pairings will probably end up being better on average. AS has way too many East Coast destinations with only one or two flights a day. If they can mix and match some of the routes the pairings should improve.

Either way PBS isn't going to fix pairing construction and given AS ALPA's negotiating track record I'm doubtful that whatever PBS language they do negotiation won't be a Sheet Sandwich..

At least with PBS you can mitigate the damage by stacking non-commutable trips next to each other and minimize the number of commutes each month. That alone could be worth several days a month of being at home that don't necessarily show up on the actual schedules. I agree that what's within the lines might be inefficient as hell, but at least with PBS you have more flexibility to choose what kind of ****** sandwich you want to have.

I don't trust AAG management and our crew planning with PBS. They will use it to their advantage to the fullest extent. It will be yet another weapon for them to make us even more productive. They want it badly for a reason... and it's not just for cost cutting.

No to PBS unless management is willing to give the pilot group control over writing pairings, running the software, etc. We also need transparency.

It's way past time for this pilot group to ask management what they're willing to give up for PBS implementation. We should run PBS the way Delta does... and we should demand Delta work rules.

I'm fed up with B&B's BS and secret sauce.

/end rant

True, just ask our FA's about Alaska's implementation of PBS.

No matter what proof you show them they will never go for PBS. Senior DAL 737 Capt's have 18 days off/70hrs (no training or vacation) and junior Capts have 18 or 17 days off. Not only are there more days off, you can chose your type of trips and on which days.

Baja.

Message me anytime you want monthly print outs of schedules dude... I'm sure your ALPA will fight for you to get the correct PBS. Or maybe ALPA is too busy skimming $$ off of having meetings at the Italian place, or doing back room deals to make LAX PDX ANC's LEC Votes worthless. Good Luck bro... You all have a hard road ahead, you have a company that wants to screw you and a Union that only supports itself.

Baja.

I hope we keep line bidding. I hope we fight like hell to keep it in contract 2020. If the company really wants it, it’s gonna cost them. That’s my stance anyway. I hope all VX’ers jump on board with me.

I know a VX CA who lives in New Zealand. Would he be able to bid 6 on, 1 off and 6 on via line bidding? Could such a person rely on trip trading to accomplish that schedule?

I want DCA, SAN, ORD and HNL next month with a stretch of approx 8 days off. Preferably 3 or 4 four-day trips that are commutable on one or both ends. At approx 50% FO seniority at VX, I think I'll be real close to getting that. Would that be feasible with AS line bidding?

For the millionth time, please stop selling PBS on a public forum.

You’re cutting our legs out from beneath us when it comes to negotiations.

I'm not selling anything. I've never done line bidding, but I'm certain that good line bidding is better than BT/BM PBS.

I'm genuinely asking about some of the mechanics on how well/flexible the trip trading is.

Absolutely not :)

Does PBS build pairings as it awards them, or does someone build the pairings and then load them into PBS?

Mudhen, thank you, my sentiments exactly. Also I applaud your liberal use of the word retard, glad to see someone working hard to bring it back to its rightful reign of awesomeness. :cool: Look forward to flying with you one day, first round is on me.

Second that, I'm just sittin back reading all like...

https://giphy.com/gifs/Zst1lWkcSgTEk/html5

Absolutely gotta have contract language re. software control and pairings with PBS. But if you have that, it can be pretty nice.

Every implementation I've seen pairings were hand-built (doesn't mean it couldn't be done). That's probably good, since an efficient pairing is probably good for both company and pilots. When it comes time to allocate pairings, that's where company interests and pilot interests diverge.

Global optimization means that PBS will need to disregard seniority to solve a Chinese puzzle to ensure rest/work rules don't create inefficiencies. Must have tight contractual language, otherwise your seniority will be respected only up to the point where PBS needs to give your trip to a junior in order maximize productivity.

We should probably start a new thread for this, but I'll bite.

I have quite a bit of experience with the pairing construction and PBS process at a large regional airline which I assume is close to what VX has.

First and foremost... Garbage in Garbage out! Alaska suffers from having a larger percentage of their block being shorter flights (like a regional). Virgin on the other hand has a higher percentage of the total block they fly as longer flights(Transcons, etc.). This will inherently make the pairings (and credit per duty/day) better for Virgin, and also allow pilots more days off. Listening to a VX crew member say (while true) the most junior line holder has 16 days off, isn't indicative of much. So It's a little hard to compare PBS vs Line bidding in their current forms.

That being said, there is complex software made by different companies that will build the pairings. The system works by creating a cost solution for each run you do. I am familiar with the Jeppesen System and It works by loading all flights into the system and then assigning penalties to whatever you want to avoid. You can assign a penalty for almost anything that has a cost to it. So a company will assign varying penalties to the system for obvious things like deadheads, hotel nights, soft time, or anything that costs the company they want to avoid. This gives the user the ability to assign penalties for thing they want to avoid. For example, we would assign penalties for four day pairings for some domiciles that didn't want them, or penalties for long sits to try to massage the system to not have 4 hours sits. From what I can tell looking at the Alaska pairings, it looks like they put little emphasis on anything and just let the system build the most efficient solution, possibly small penalties on pairings of certain lengths to get a good (subjective) distribution of pairing lengths. This is great for the company but not for a commuter. From my experience the most efficient solution if you assigned almost no penalties for the whole system would be five and six day parings that show early and end late. This, as one would know, would allow the system to work the pilot to absolute max and get the most work out of them. We, of course, limited the system to four days.

Looking at the Alaska lines it looks to me that they aren't built by hand. This would be an absolute waste of time when a program could build the lines. I'm also skeptical of your process. There are a few things that are quite suspect. The first thing is that theres a magic seniority in each domicile where you go from 14 to 15 days off a month which seems to be 50%. Also there seems to be the top few lines in every domicile where the best two days or most efficient pairings are hand picked to get 20-22 days off a month. The bottom end is absolutely dismal at 12 days off a month and the most inefficient trips all strung together.

There are other completely asinine rules in the contract that handicap ones productivity like having to have four 48 hours blocks off in a month. Which I understand, is protect the poor guy with only 12 days off a month, but wouldn't be needed if the lines were built by PBS.

Now on to PBS. The pairings are already built by the pairing optimizer and then put into the system for crew members to bid on. What PBS does is essentially allow you to build a line with preferences that you assign and not what someone who is cherry picking prime trips for the top 10 lines while leaving the crap for everyone else wants. Alaska system is pretty much PBS anyway except you have to spend have your month trolling the trade board looking for what you would have just bid for in the first place. It allows the person who can hold commutable trip have them, someone who wants two days have them, someone can bid two day back to back trips instead of 4 days, etc. From what I could gather the a line at Alaska is a hodgepodge of everything 4 days, 3 days, 2 days, three day back to back, there was no logic in it other than the program was screwed because it was allowing for the four 48 hour periods.

I am an advocate of PBS, as you could probably tell, but I must stress that there needs to be bullet proof language behind it. It can very easily be manipulated to the companies advantage and it is inherently better for the company, we should get something for it! I'm sure PBS is coming but there needs to be a group of people highly familiar with PBS, pairing construction, etc. that are making the rules behind it. The current scheduling group will be hard pressed to understand the nuances of PBS if their experience is with line bidding. Things like globalization, ability to manipulate the required average line credit monthly, days off between work blocks, etc. are very important.

The people who are calling for pilots to build the pairings are delusional, suspecting this would be better. What's good for you might not be good for the next guy. So careful what you wish for. Oversight yes, but a few senior people building pairings will be good for them, not you.

What leverage you speak of?
You guys already gave up on conflict bidding in your line bidding scheme, the one thing that made line bidding attractive!
You don’t even know apparently what you have or “really” don’t have... you have no leverage, you have a crap sandwich...😉

Don't blame me; I'm new here too. There's quite a lot of leverage when PBS will save the company around 10 percent in staffing requirements. I'm sure the senior guys can score an extra week of vacation for themselves with that in negotiations. ;)

As far as conflict bidding there is one and only one thing in AS's CBA that makes you say, "wow that's cool." Pilots can trade away single vacation days to each other in order to conflict bid the days off they need. One week of vacation over xmas can be very powerful.

A sick call works just as well, too. It's amazing how much time off 1,600 hours will get you; not that I would know, of course.

We had PBS at the regionals. I can take it or leave it. In my short time at Alaska, I have learned that this management can't be trusted. It can be said of any management but these guys are the cheesiest. I remember BM saying PBS will require 10% less pilots. Tell me, how is that good for the pilot group? If history is an indicator, no solid language will prevent this management from violating the contract on a whim in order to move jets. Management wants PBS bad. Just say no.

While that is nice, with PBS at VX I've had Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Years off, every single year, as a junior reserve pilot...as a junior lineholder...and as a well established lineholder. I don't NEED conflicts because...there aren't any.

I can bid in five minutes and get every day off I want, every trip I want, commutability, every overnight, every bit of soft time, every start/end time I want and everything else you can imagine, that I have selected, within reason. Line bidding is great if you have PAID conflicts and decent pairings. Alaska has neither, so let's stop lying to ourselves and moving forward, negotiate what benefits us all. I'd rather our company and pilots be more efficient and healthier, in turn we get compensated accordingly.

If the uneducated guys keep us in this archaic system of having to dick around with our schedules all month long and having 12-14 days off a month until we've been flying at Alaska for three decades, we'd be better off quitting to go somewhere that values their pilots both monetarily, and by giving them a respectable QOL. 12 days off is a joke. I had more than 12 days off on reserve.

This is true. The work rules at Horizon with their old line bidding system were better than Alaska with regards to conflicts. Vacation wasn't accrued by the day, but by the hour. Thus, any trip that touched your vacation got dropped, and you got paid for it if you had the hours in your bank. None of this nonsense where you have to pick up something to get yourself back to minimum credit for the month... I once had 25 consecutive days off while using one week of vacation, and I got paid for the full month.

One of the more senior people here, correct me if I'm wrong... I believe the trip conflict language was something that got Kasher'd as well? To be honest, the advantage of line bidding dissipates rapidly without being able to use conflicts to your advantage.

I'm glad you get it Pete. Please, show some of these guys the light. There's nothing to be afraid of IF provisions are in place to run it right, and run it like a real airline, not a regional. I wouldn't want a garbage PBS in place any more than a garbage line bidding system, but having worked under both systems, I prefer PBS BY FAR over line bidding. I have better $hit to do than fiddle with my schedule all month to get it right.

I look forward to sharing beers and b itching about contract 2020 with you. :D

Hate to tell you this but you were bought and merged into a west coast regional. It has always been laughable when people call Alaska a legacy major....When the SEA schedulers are done meddling with the Airbus PBS it will build lines that
look just like the Boeing lines....If we get PBS it will build 12 day off lines and you will be fly the same $hitty stuff we have and you wont be holding weekends and holidays off...No one in corporate wants you to be happy with your schedule...They do not care about efficiency or productivity....We are cheap. And commuting, forget about it...we start early and end late....Not going to change in 2020....We have zero unity....If corporate wants it we dont.....It takes about 3 years here before people get it....

So who works on the holidays? You make it sound like PBS magically makes everyone get the holidays off. I think the more uneducated of us think that PBS is going to fix crappy pairings and work rules instead of thinking that leveraging PBS during negotiations might fix crappy pairings and work rules.

Amen. Someone who gets it. Thank you.

I don't know how many times some people need to hear this, but for the last time, we get it. You do not understand this management. WE THE NATIVE ALASKANS DO. Your life will be far WORSE with Alaska management controlling PBS. PBS in and of itself is neither good nor bad, it's the ethics of those in control that decide that. I will NEVER support even trying it here. They have forever lost my trust. That happened in May of 2005 and they'll never regain it.

The funny thing is when you talk to guys on the line, the senior guys that stand to benefit the most from PBS are the most dogmatically against PBS.

AS trading system sucks. I was 20 out of 150 in PDX and had a hard time getting a trade. It was hard enough that I would bid to guarantee the days off I needed while being on crap trips. If I had PBS I would have had both my days off and my choice of trips.

When I first got here 10 years ago it was a little better. Humans actually did the trades so you could get stuff. For example if you want a DCA 2 day and submit for it, in the “old” days you could put a note in the comments that said you were just looking for a 2 day east coast no red-eye on the 12th or 13th and you would get it if their was one available. Now, with the computerized system, if the EXACT pairing is no longer available (maybe the senior guy traded his DCA on the 13th for the DCA you submitted for on the 12th) you will be denied the trade. So in practical terms, as soon as the number one pilot submits a trade, the hours of scouring the open time for trips that fit are out the window. The farther down the list you are, the more of a waste of time trading is. The benefit to be a little more junior under alaskas system is that at least after a certain point on the seniority list their isn’t a point to even bothering with first step. At least that’s a few extra hours of your life back.

Keep up the fight for PBS, while the PBS haters are the noisiest, I have a feeling they are losing their majority. Get it to a systemwide vote and let’s see.

You misunderstand what I'm saying. I would never, EVER advocate for a PBS these @sshats at Angle Lake could control. There need to be protective provisions put in place and the pilots/ALPA get to set agreed upon parameters that must be adhered to. There is no reason this couldn't be negotiated.

In that scenario the pilots win, the company wins. That's why we would negotiate getting it, while also getting something substantial in return. Saying you'll never support PBS that would drastically improve QOL for every pilot on property, just because you got f ucked in 2005 on a contract - 13 years ago - is a very ignorant way to move forward.

It's 2018, PBS, properly run (and contractually enforced) is WORLDS better than line bidding without conflicts. I'm happy to send you an example schedule of what I can accomplish in five minutes of bidding, if you'd like. Feel free to compare it to anyone, any seniority, who's line bidding. I have many friends at Alaska, it's no contest. It's night and day.

Obviously someone works on holidays, but if you understand how PBS works, it basically creates a window. For this example we will use Christmas as Dec 23-26th. As long as you work within that window, it's basically the same as working on the holiday. So bid a trip that ends on Dec 23rd or starts the evening of Dec 26th and PBS essentially says "cool, he's worked the holiday" and it won't try to assign another pairing within that holiday window. Someone gets boned further down the list eventually, but in many cases, since we had holiday pay under our old contract, finding holiday coverage wasn't hard.

Our new JCBA does NOT have holiday pay, thus coverage will be mandated to those who are lower in seniority, but the beauty of PBS is that everyone wants something different. I'm single and don't have kids, thus I don't care about working early/late/weekends/getting Wednesdays off to coach baseball practice. I can get more productive pairings and fill my schedule with stuff more senior guys are trying to avoid for whatever reason, and since they'd rather have every weekend off than a holiday for example, I'll still get what I want and for the most part, they will too.

I bid in five minutes and have my schedule by the 10th of the month just how I want it, meanwhile my buddies at Alaska have to fiddlef uck around with their schedule for weeks to get it even close, and have garbage productivity and time off. How is this QOL not wildly apparent to the PBS naysayers? It just makes no sense to me.