SLI reality check fo VX
 

Pretty tough day at the negotiating table for VX. Wonder if they will stay dug in or listen to the mediator? I am sure when this is done late summer the Alaska side will be accused of buying the SLI. Reality fair is fair everyone sees it clearly but the VX negotiators.

You got your trolling poles down, downriggers out, bow pointed into the swell and you're ready to fish!
Seriously, we have no idea how the SLI will turn out. Everyone has their own personal opinion on what is fair. Guess what - that means absolutely jack squat.
There is probably a retard at VX that thinks that their #1 man at 9 years is equal to our #1 man at 39 years. There is probably a retard at AS that thinks that VX should just be stapled.
None of it, absolutely none of it, is in any way shape or form in our control. We will all simply find out in Sept 2018.

The ONLY opinions that matter are the three arbitrators. They will make up their minds after ten days of hearings and several months digging through the facts presented. Neither Merger Committees have any clue at this point how things will fall. IF they are sharing an assessment at this point it is only speculative at best. Good mediators excel at applying pressure to push the sides closer, it doesn’t mean they believe what they are saying or will follow through on statements made. Arbitration starts at square one (except for anything agreed to by the parties that carries over).

1st VX pilot
@ #623
7AS to 1VX to seniority 1100
1AS to 3VX seniority 1100 to 1195
2AS to 1VX seniority 1195 to 1803
DH after that

Interesting. You’ve always seemed to have inside info so I’m sure there’s some accuracy to this. Is that what a mediator suggested?

I have a friend at United who still complains about a Continental ‘06 DOH next to him as a late 90s hire. If they’re complaining about a 7 yr difference I cannot even imagine what it will be here. Is that our Alaska proposal above?

When TWA was bought by AA, there was an offset of about 10 years. 40% or so were stapled to the bottom.

Then 9/11 happened and most of those stapled were promptly furloughed. Retirement went from age 60 to age 65. Most of the furloughed were out for better part of a decade.

The TWA FA had it more extreme. They were totally stapled. Meaning the #1 35 year TWA FA was stapled below the 7 MONTH newest AA FA.

What is done is done. Most everyone licked their wounds and has moved on. It is what it is.

But I share this so when the SLI comes out, no matter who thinks they ‘lost’ or were ‘cheated’, there are pilots (and FA) in this industry who had it worse. You will be treated much better, so grouse, complain, argue; but eventually get over it and move on.

As a 00' NWA hire I have an 07' hire senior to me at DAL. But I was also an 06' Alaska hire. Considering where I sit I'm very blessed to be where I'm at.

Baja.

Can you put this out as an equation, like if you were number 250 at VX? Does this mean 68 virgin guys get molded into the first 477 slots from 623-1100 and then 285 VX guys get molded in from 1100-1195 (Not sure if that's right because its only 95 spots your inferring or if its only 31 guys???), and finally 152 guys VX guys get molded into the last 1803 spots?

#623 at Alaska is a 1/2000 hire date and 1803 at Alaska is 11/16. I thought they were supposed to merge everyone from announcement. From my dumb math, the first 100 guys at Virgin, whom are senior line holders, would round out next to an Alaska hire date of 2011, which is an FO and is about 100 from upgrade....

Mea is an idiot. Don't feed the trolls.

Uhm yes that is really bad math and an old seniority list you are looking at.
The VX pilot group would have 353 pilots in the top 1548 of a company of 2850. Depending on retirements that is 353 pilots in the top 53% of the combined company.
VX seniority 100 would be @1108 or 38% a 24% slide. A very similar slide your #1 has to 624... a 20% slide.
But ignore me I am an idiot... listen to jive, if you can understand him. He has been right about everything... I think he is a made man.

This thread needs to stop. No need to stress over something we have no control over. This is the kind of crap that will deflect us from the real goal of unity in 2020.

Sorry VX# 100 would be at 1131 globally. That was tired bad math late at night but percentage wise is virtually the same number.

I am confused, where do you work now....? NWA to ASA to DAL? So you quit NWA to go to ASA?

Quit it already. Mods close it up.

You've got some AWFUL math skills if you think #100 out of 850 Virgin guys at 11% is virtually the same number as #1131 out #3000 combined at 38%.

DOH is the Gold Standard.

It's a shame there isn't a "ALPA merger policy for dummies" book available to read...

Knowledge of the current policy covering ALPA-ALPA mergers would be a powerful thing.

This thread should close.

S

1108 and 1131 are virtually the same number.

The first 280 or so at VX will see a 20% degradation in global seniority but base position will be unharmed. Most everyone else will see much smaller global position moves.

[QUOTE=tzskipper;2510992]It's a shame there isn't a "ALPA merger policy for dummies" book available to read...

Knowledge of the current policy covering ALPA-ALPA mergers would be a powerful thing.

This thread should close.

Well that tells you how blind you are. Alpa Alpa is a guide line not a rule. Mergers of NWA and DAL, CAL and UAL were mergers done by similar companies with equal footing. VX could not buy AS, they are by no stretch of the numbers, equal in any fashion. VX was a struggling start up and AS a 85 year old airline with the best balance sheets in the industry. Kill the thread though... I have to be wrong

[QUOTE=Mea25000;2511048]I don't know whether you will be proven wrong or right. I do know that ALPA-ALPA is more than "a guide" as supported by Federal law. It is my understanding that an arbitration panel must consider the policy as more than simply "a guide".

That is my only point.

https://law-articles.vlex.com/vid/se...tute-351067646

"..If the covered transaction involves employee groups represented by the same union, the statute provides that the union's internal merger policies apply exclusively, with no carrier involvement, except as to whether it will accept and implement the result of the integration process (i.e., the combined seniority list)...."


S

I don’t understand the opposition to this thread. This is the most info or scenarios I’ve heard. I’d rather have an idea now then be blindsided by the arbitrator.

Have I talked to a rep? Yes
Did it help? No

Gold standard for what? It certainly has not been for mergers.

Need to take your emotions out of it, and come to grasps with this: Water under the bridge is irrelevant. Who was struggling five years ago is irrelevant. Who has existed for 85 years is irrelevant. Who has been employed for 40 years is irrelevant. All of that is water under the bridge.

They are going to look at current status and future prospects. VX was profitable in the years before the acquisition. Could it stay that way? Hard to know for sure, that and it's smaller size (and thus higher vulnerability) may weigh into the decision. AS financial position could weigh into it.

Probably no extra credit for payscale disparity...

1) That's already fixed (remember, don't look in the rear-view mirror).
2) VX was in the typical startup life cycle of having voted in the union and commenced negotiations. They will get some benefit of the doubt on payscale for that.

Senior AS folks will almost certainly retain their coveted positions in the PNW, they are reasonably entitled to that. Most VX folks aren't really interested in that anyway, unless they happen to live there already. Most will continue to commute to the CA bases (commuting to PNW sucks), or live in CA and drive to work... not everybody likes rain.

And nobody is going to trade a bus for a 73 just to get the type rating...

Yawn, more stuff to try and divide us. No wonder we will never have scope if we keep this dick measuring contest up.

What you say is true. There are no wide bodies and career expectations are the same (narrow body domestic Captain). Throw in a little credit for the Alaska high ground position and you get the arbitrators decision.
I have a feeling that there will be alot of expectations crushed in this SLI. It really is out of the pilots control so just f in chill and see what happens. Then pull up your pants and march on.

Not measuring anything, just stating how it's going to be (no dog in this fight).

Hopefully everybody will dust off and move out following the arbitrators decision.

Really? There are still guys on the list upset about the Jet A SLI.

What I wrote is not divisive, they are just numbers. Unless the two other arbiters see it 180 degrees different this is what you will see within pennies come late summer. I want nothing but good for every VX pilot. I am sure 99% of you are awesome. I want long incredible careers for us all. I write numbers and am called an idiot, sent hate messages. Really? I am sorry but when have I been wrong... Who has given you better info or numbers? I give numbers and until they are proven true I am accosted by haters.

I do think most pilots at VX need to look at these numbers.
Migration numbers based on address on file.
Reasonable migration numbers
VX pilots to SEA and PDX > 23%
VX pilots to ANC < 1%

AS pilots to SFO < 1%
AS pilots to JFK < 1%

So who’s career has any real possibility of being impacted? VX pilots...no only Alaska Pacific Northwest pilots have anything to lose in this SLI. How is any VX pilot career going to be harmed by this merger? LAX maybe if you are really trying to stretch for any uncertainty. You all are going to be just fine!

I haven't sent you anything nor do I have a dog in this fight, but I want to know how you know any of this. Negotiations for SLI are under NDA and anything leaked is cause for removal from the committee. So either someone is leaking something to you and can face repercussions, you were at the table and are violating the NDA and can face repercussions or you're making stuff up.

Wow... SLI police. I get it only spread lies on this website and you are ok. Anything with any truth to it and you get locked up. There is no financial information given out, no national security information. I guess this anonymous website is worthless then, we can only lye or disseminate known or trivial information. I can only imagine what my penance will be. Hopefully, some more time off. I will stop posting now because the bullies aren’t getting their way and are try to shutdown the dissemination of information.

It is interesting how much info Mea25000 has. Iirc he has some info on the arbitration before it came out too. He’s probably accurate

Why should only a few be intrusted with information. How or who does this knowledge hurt. We are all big boys and girls. We can reason through information just as well as anyone else. Why all the secrecy. Who are we protecting. Oh I know the union masons are protecting us from our selves. Are we surfs living under Kings or in a aristocracy? I think most people want to know what is really going on. Attorneys get paid, arbiters get paid, we all get screwed and gladly pay their exorbitant fees. So you guys get me fired... I am the bad guy.

I agree, no big need for secrecy on this. Negotiations with the company, different deal. Worst case here is reps get an earful.

Of course I didn't sign any NDA.

I asked you a simple question. “Where did you get your information from?” Then you went on a diatribe on different types of feudalism. Were you at the table or heard about what was spoken at the table with the mediator, or were you just throwing out a WAG?

Personally, this SLI formula would be great in putting a lot of the PBS kids in the lower half of the bidding stack in any base. Gone would be the terrible idea that PBS works under the current CBA work rules as all Airbus pilots would feel the effects of the Emperors optimizer at mediocre seniority. Best way to achieve a common goal is to show the few with 9 years seniority over at Brand X what life is like at mid to low seniority at Alaska so in 2020 real unity can swat at the meager first scraps thrown to a vote during Section 6 negotiations

Re-read your initial post. You are needlessly adversarial and you can't back up your claims. I.e. you're a troll.

If anything, all you are saying is that AS and VX negotiators are standing their ground, instead of giving in. I'd expect nothing less. I hope both sides are having beers together while agreeing that an arbitrator is the only way to go on the SLI. As in, we're all in this together--which is the opposite of your juvenile/divisive tone.

Are you implying that 1/4 of the VX pilots live in, or will commute to, Portland or Seattle?
Where do you get these “migration” percentages?

This whole thread is ridiculous. Run the formula presented and you get the VX guys hired in 2008 who upgraded in 2010-11 placed below AS guys hired in 2012 who have yet to upgrade. That defies Category / Class and is a definite windfall for many. It flies in the face of ALPA merger policy which, though many don’t want to accept, will govern this process.