SLI reality check fo VX
 

Yeah, dare you to repeat this in front of me.

Yeah, we VXers sure got a windfall, working now for a company that 98% of our pilots never would have applied to, yeah real fortunate.

Just doing my time until the next merger.


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this might be the most upsetting post I've ever read on here. If its so easy to get on everywhere, why are you at Alaska? I could name 6 other airlines that most people would put ahead of Alaska as a potential employer. You dont know why I came to VX, nor the other 700 or so pilots here. So to make a claim that we are all undesireables, I really have only one reply

Go F U C K yourself.

Hey bubba, you have data to show this? You speak out of both ends and sound pretty defensive. Alaskan's QOL does suck and soon, you'll be kissing PBS goodbye which will make things even worse for y'all. Spirit is hiring and it looks like they'll be getting PBS. Why don't you apply there? PBS, fly the bus, quick upgrades, work rules to suit your needs, and on par quality wise with ex-VX. Merger/acquisiton seems to be your thing since it appears that's the only way you'll ever work at anywhere decent. Otherwise, shut your pie hole and enjoy the ride.

Wow. Never underestimate the limit of pilot arrogance.

Good luck to you guys.

Reggie, Nottellin, and whomever else I have offended,

My sincere apologies... I did not realize I was coming across this way. Sorry. I will take a break from posting. My sincere best to you all.

Shut my pie hole? Ha! Really, who talks like that?

Ask anybody from VX prior to the announced buy out if they applied to Alaska, if you get more than 3-5% I’d be shocked. Seems Alaska folks seem to think EVERYBODY wants to work there when unless you live in the PNW, the opposite would be closer to the truth.

Funny how life works. My checks are signed by the very people that tried to keep me from feeding my family, twice. Even more ironically, I’m represented by another groups that did much the same thing.

To some of you, I got a windfall. To me, my career turned into just a job, a common feeling among VXers actually. If we wanted to work for a glorified regional we would would have applied.




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According to the LA Times, its a done deal. Relative seniority.

http://www.latimes.com/business/alpa-negotiates-relative-seniority-merger-between-alaska-and-virgin-america-pilots

I’ll be sure to let my Captain who flew fighters and taught in the United States Air Force serving our country that he’s an “undesirable”, as you say. I guess all the Midwest Airlines guys and gals, Aloha, ABX, Usair, TWA/AA , etc etc ... were all just a bunch of undesirables baby!

I have to say it takes a lot for me to engage on these forums, but calling my co-workers, many of which I consider some of the best professionals in the industry, "undesirable", really strikes a chord with me. Unless you've lived under a rock for the last 18 years you know very well the cards that have been dealt to many in this industry. Think of any airline who has gone tango uniform or has furloughed since 9/11 and we have some of those folks here at VX. Not to mention the long list of USAF Academy, Naval Academy, etc.. aviators that work within our ranks. The last word I would ever use to describe those people here is "undesirable". You ought to be ashamed of yourself dude.

A pilot group who has traditionally rolled over on all fours and taken it **, dare to call VX group "undesirable"?!! *!!

The UAL pilots said the same things about us CAL pilots and how there were no pilots who left United for Continental, etc. It didn't matter. ALPA just uses status and category, longevity, and career expectations (which just means widebody fences). Expect status and category and longevity with some % weighting for each.

The Great Defenders of Alaska are all the “ Legacy Brats” that infest this place....They along with their brothers, mothers, fathers, uncles and the rest of their inbred kin are why we have an empty shell called a contract....Yes voters all. The loudest voices on here stood next to you at the picketing events and then slunk off and flew their vsa premium ***** trips later in the day....you now work for a west coast super-regional....not a major and certainly not a legacy....Ignore the punks and punkettes whether they be 26 or 56....It is a job not a career...

Finally, one worthwhile post in this terrible thread. We are such a bunch of babies...

Its all dust in the wind.

WEll played sir!!!!

This has to be one of the most ignorant posts I've ever read and embarrassing that it comes from a fellow Alaska guy. I have many friends at VX whom I've flown with at various other carriers that are top-notch standup guys and gals. There isn't anything we can do about the SLI and we'll probably all end up within a few percentage points relative on the list so get over it. This drama is pointless, lets get some unity going for 2020. Were going to need it.

DOH solves the problem. Plus its the gold standard.

DoH hasn't even been a part of the ALPA Merger/Frag policy since the early '90's when UAL got the BoD to replace it with "career expectations." That was to prevent USAir pilots in a prospective merger (which, btw, failed) out of the UAL widebody seats.

Since neither AS nor VX fly widebodies, "career expectations" as defined don't come into play.

Sure, but DOH would make it simple. Everyone on the the Alaska list started with a DOH #. Heck I looked at the Virgin list and it's a mess. They upgraded a bunch of people out of seniority. So I guess seniority don't mean much over there. DOH would fix that for the VX folks who got passed over. Merit upgrades??

I won’t go into the details because it is way to long but there were never any merit upgrades at VX, it had to do with something those pilots agreed to per their job offer. It was arbitrated and nothing changed.

SLI reality check fo VX
 

Removed removed

Ok but wasn't Vx an ALPA carrier? My understanding is VX ALPA's main goals was/is to protect jobs and seniority. WTF over. Now VX is demanding a relative seniority list. Putting a 9 year guy next to a 30 year guy. Give me a break. Can you say labor discord! We all saw the USAIR, AWA freak show. DOH avoids a windfall. We all started with a DOH. So let DOH be the gold standard.

Ideally, QOL wrt to bidding will degrade as little as possible for anyone affected. Should a 10 year 737 FO now upgrade to the number 1 CA on the bus? Of course not.
Try this: "We're all in this together. I hope it works out as best as possible for all". Or: "You're going to get hosed. Haha".
One view point makes you a useless POS, like Mea25000. The other makes you human.
The fat lady will eventually sing and we'll have our answer. It should not take superpowers to be nice to one another.

DOH is a no go for many VX folks since according to some on this forum, 98% of them would have bypassed a job offer with Alaskan Airways and wanted nothing to do with the eskimo. The only way a 9 year guy will be next to a 30 year guy will be "starting engine #......".

Explain to me how this makes any sense as an Alaska pilot with 30 years starts at seniority 100, while #1 has 39. W T F?

I would suggest that a person read the AA and UA awards and then expect a solution that strongly reflects something between those two outcomes.

I sincerely hope Alaska & Virgin have strong analysis capabilities—clearing showing data without cherry picking will pay dividends in the long-term. There will be less suicides this way.

I probably wasn't very clear. My point was VX ALPA allowed VX pilots to upgrade out of seniority. The 30 year 9 year was a generalization. Our top guys are 30+ years. Our seniority has always been based on DOH. So whats wrong with using DOH as the gold standard. Having pilots jump over 10+ years up the list is a windfall for that group.

Because AS years do not equal VX years. Many VX folks rolled the dice big time to work at a startup early on, the reward for that is a senior CA slot.

VX will not agree to DOH and the arbitrator will not award DOH, so why bother talking about it?

Are you talking about the restricted FOs? That took place long before ALPA was voted in at VX. And, like a previous poster said, it had to do with something those pilots agreed to when hired. Its been arbitrated and nothing changed.

I give up it will be what it will be. Hope the arbitrator sees what each side brings to the table and accounts for that.

Bless your little misguided heart...

Finally. Thats the spirit!

Again, both carriers are ALPA carriers. DoH is not a factor in the ALPA Merger/Fragmentation policy. So no matter how much you want DoH to be the "gold standard" (and believe me, that's what I would want!) it won't/can't happen under the ALPA Merger/Frag policy.

Hate to burst your bubble.

Especially since its NOT a part of the joint Union policy that will cover it. To continue to insist upon it is so much peeing in the wind.

It won't happen because it CAN'T happen. Dreaming about it won't make it so.

Relative seniority. As explained to me it has nothing to do with merging the two groups. What it has to do with is each pilot group keeps “their” relative seniority. If you’re a 15-year Alaska FO, you won’t be jumped by a 10-year Alaska Captain. It keeps each seniority list as is. The merger committees are mainly negotiating percentage integration.....where the first airbus guys fall in and what ratios....and so on. The percentage integration lists would look just like what mea2000 mentioned earlier.....as an example. As for the arbitrator, they just have to “consider” ALPA merger policy and can weigh each section however they want. It becomes their show to do as they wish. I need to re-read the TPA to double-check though.

McCaskill-Bond says that in the merger of lists with the same union the union’s merger policy shall be used. To think one- let alone three- arbitrators would decide to simply ignore the act and open their award up to litigation seems far fetched to me.

Also, rule one of the policy states that the order of both original lists is inviolate. Under no circumstances can someone on a list jump another on the same original list... Longevity (Relative seniority) as written in the policy is an entirely different subject.

Read the policy guys, it’s not that long and it’s written in fairly easy to read English.

In arbitration, it will essentially come down to a percent weighting. In short they give each pilot a slot on a seniority list based 100% on DOH and another based 100% on relative position. Each pilot has two scores. For example, #1 VX Captain is #1 on RP list so that is 2700(?)ish points and on the DOH list he is about 1/2 way down so let’s pretend 1350 points.

Now the argument becomes how much to weigh each category. Let’s say it is 50% longevity and 50% RP. 2700x.5=1350 plus 1350x.5=675. Total score is 2025. Do that for every pilot on the list and then put them in order by total score.

This is how essentially the last 3 arbitrated SLI’s have been done and there is no reason to think it would be any different here.

What the arguments come down to then is how much each side should be weighed. L-UAL asked for 50% longevity weight...got 35%. In USA E/W it was 15% longevity. In USA/AA it was also 15% longevity.

Arbitrators love precedent...and this formula method is pretty easy to implement once you decide what the scores should be.

Anyway, I am horrified by some of the comments placed on here by some alleged Alaska pilots. My guess is they have to come on the internet to rant because nobody is listening to them at work.

Apples and oranges one has nothing to do with the other stop trolling, get a life

His view is tainted by the fact that he has zero concept of the ALPA Merger/Frag policy.

While arbitrated ALPA merger policy isn’t my specialty, it appears from past cases an arbitrator can weigh provisions how they see fit. ALPA merger policy is vague. For example, longevity in arbitration has been weighed anywhere from 15-35 percent. An arbitrator could weight it 75% or 5% if they want. They can weigh the provisions however they want. They can even look outside the merger policy as long as they “considered” it. Probably not likely but possible. Arbitration sucks.

No, I am aware of ALPA's merger policy. I just feel DOH is the fair way of resolving the list. Just an opinion that's all. The list will be, what it will be. Just hope it's fair and the Alaska guys don't get screwed. We all have been crawling up the list for years. My opinion doesn't mean sh_t. Last time I checked, in America your still allowed to have one.