Quality of Life
07-10-2018, 10:06 PM
#81
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 170
Originally Posted by EskimoJoe
OTOH, Given your 3 decades in aviation, I'd hope, by now, you'd be able to appreciate some positive aspects at Alaska. Sure, we aren't Delta. However, I'm going to clear 300k of cash compensation this year very easily. Full benefits, an A plan, a DC plan maxed to Federal "all sources" Limits, 30+ days vacation...etc. Good luck finding a comparable job outside of aviation. You were furloughed, were you offered any jobs with a total compensation package like that? I sure as hell wasn't. I set the brake, go home, and forget all about the Eskimo...Life isn't so bad...and when my schedule becomes too challenging and fatiguing, I address it. Problem solved. That's the system management seems to want. fine. I really do have better sh*t to do than worry about work/union issues all the time and where the proverbial grass may be (temporarily)greener. So I don't. I'm a clock punching line puke with no ambitions beyond that.
07-10-2018, 11:24 PM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Position: Captain B-737
Posts: 290
Originally Posted by waterboy
Just put the popcorn in the microwave...I can't wait!
I'm Hardly alone. All TOS Captains have the same opportunities. The retirement plan is a little convoluted thanks to the last arbitration but in the end, the money is the same. Not really all that interesting.
07-11-2018, 06:10 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: This side of the dirt.
Posts: 890
Originally Posted by EskimoJoe
Cool. I'm 24 years with 22 in ALPA. I was also at another Major before 9-11 and Got furloughed. The contract back then was also better than the current Alaska one (work rules for sure, money about the same adjusted for inflation) but that's apples and oranges. Why? Because after 9-11 that awesome contract was obliterated...completely obliterated. In the post 9-11 world, No airline in America had a contract comparable to Alaska's. That's not because it was so great, it's because the entire industry fell in a cascading, calving collapse around it. BTW, that awesome pre-9-11 contract is STILL not back at said Legacy. It's lost for the foreseeable future. In my years at Alaska, we have taken a strike vote. I've done informational Picketing here as well. Surely, after 30 years in the industry, you must know what a worthless, meaningless gesture that is.
When was the last strike of a Legacy Carrier? Remember American in 1998 and their sick out? That cost the APA every last penny in their coffers. Sure, Spirit went on strike for about 3 days or whatever it was but they don't really count. Do you really think Alaska Airlines pilots will EVER be allowed to strike? We are the only game in town for much of the entire state. A state, BTW, that is so geographically large, if over-laid on the lower 48, it would stretch from Seattle to Jacksonville Florida. A Strike at Alaska will NEVER happen and we all know it...therefore, a "strike vote" is a complete joke. I'm willing to fight for fair contract, we all are, but let's be real. This management DOES NOT NEGOTIATE. They don't have to. They are uniquely positioned to give us the finger for years with no real legal consequences. Is that a defeatist attitude or simple reality? I'd say the latter.
OTOH, Given your 3 decades in aviation, I'd hope, by now, you'd be able to appreciate some positive aspects at Alaska. Sure, we aren't Delta. However, I'm going to clear 300k of cash compensation this year very easily. Full benefits, an A plan, a DC plan maxed to Federal "all sources" Limits, 30+ days vacation...etc. Good luck finding a comparable job outside of aviation. You were furloughed, were you offered any jobs with a total compensation package like that? I sure as hell wasn't. I set the brake, go home, and forget all about the Eskimo...Life isn't so bad...and when my schedule becomes too challenging and fatiguing, I address it. Problem solved. That's the system management seems to want. fine. I really do have better sh*t to do than worry about work/union issues all the time and where the proverbial grass may be (temporarily)greener. So I don't. I'm a clock punching line puke with no ambitions beyond that.
When was the last strike of a Legacy Carrier? Remember American in 1998 and their sick out? That cost the APA every last penny in their coffers. Sure, Spirit went on strike for about 3 days or whatever it was but they don't really count. Do you really think Alaska Airlines pilots will EVER be allowed to strike? We are the only game in town for much of the entire state. A state, BTW, that is so geographically large, if over-laid on the lower 48, it would stretch from Seattle to Jacksonville Florida. A Strike at Alaska will NEVER happen and we all know it...therefore, a "strike vote" is a complete joke. I'm willing to fight for fair contract, we all are, but let's be real. This management DOES NOT NEGOTIATE. They don't have to. They are uniquely positioned to give us the finger for years with no real legal consequences. Is that a defeatist attitude or simple reality? I'd say the latter.
OTOH, Given your 3 decades in aviation, I'd hope, by now, you'd be able to appreciate some positive aspects at Alaska. Sure, we aren't Delta. However, I'm going to clear 300k of cash compensation this year very easily. Full benefits, an A plan, a DC plan maxed to Federal "all sources" Limits, 30+ days vacation...etc. Good luck finding a comparable job outside of aviation. You were furloughed, were you offered any jobs with a total compensation package like that? I sure as hell wasn't. I set the brake, go home, and forget all about the Eskimo...Life isn't so bad...and when my schedule becomes too challenging and fatiguing, I address it. Problem solved. That's the system management seems to want. fine. I really do have better sh*t to do than worry about work/union issues all the time and where the proverbial grass may be (temporarily)greener. So I don't. I'm a clock punching line puke with no ambitions beyond that.
2nd... the contract I was talking about was POST 9/11... and yes, nearly every major passenger airline contract got blown away after 9/11.. we agree
3rd... after several responses here, it’s becoming more clear as to why the contract is comparatively lacking
A. Since we can’t strike, negotiations
are an exercise in futility.
B. I live in base, I finally made it to
the tenderloin of the contract, I
have a great schedule, money and
bennies, so there’s no way I’m
upsetting that apple cart.
4th... Since nobody has answered my question “what DO they listen to?”, I can only assume that our singular negotiating position is “See point 3.a.”
Not bein a smarta$$ when I say I genuinely appreciate the education. It’ll help me understand the culture/philosophy guiding negotiations in 2020
07-11-2018, 06:49 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2018
Posts: 692
Originally Posted by av8or
1st... just so we’re clear.... I was just answering the question “how long have you been in this business?”
2nd... the contract I was talking about was POST 9/11... and yes, nearly every major passenger airline contract got blown away after 9/11.. we agree
3rd... after several responses here, it’s becoming more clear as to why the contract is comparatively lacking
A. Since we can’t strike, negotiations
are an exercise in futility.
B. I live in base, I finally made it to
the tenderloin of the contract, I
have a great schedule, money and
bennies, so there’s no way I’m
upsetting that apple cart.
4th... Since nobody has answered my question “what DO they listen to?”, I can only assume that our singular negotiating position is “See point 3.a.”
Not bein a smarta$$ when I say I genuinely appreciate the education. It’ll help me understand the culture/philosophy guiding negotiations in 2020
2nd... the contract I was talking about was POST 9/11... and yes, nearly every major passenger airline contract got blown away after 9/11.. we agree
3rd... after several responses here, it’s becoming more clear as to why the contract is comparatively lacking
A. Since we can’t strike, negotiations
are an exercise in futility.
B. I live in base, I finally made it to
the tenderloin of the contract, I
have a great schedule, money and
bennies, so there’s no way I’m
upsetting that apple cart.
4th... Since nobody has answered my question “what DO they listen to?”, I can only assume that our singular negotiating position is “See point 3.a.”
Not bein a smarta$$ when I say I genuinely appreciate the education. It’ll help me understand the culture/philosophy guiding negotiations in 2020
07-11-2018, 07:07 AM
#85
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2011
Position: B737, CA
Posts: 176
EskimoJoe - outstand post! Post of the year award for accuracy right there!
PackRat - you are 100% correct as well sir. Folks who have never spent any time in the bush or even heard of SCC don't understand.
So what does Alaska "Senior Leadership" (as they love to call themselves) listen to? The BOD - and that's about it. They will not make a move that goes against their paradigm / plan / business model unless absolutely brought to their knees by the consequences of their own actions.
Need proof? You need to look no farther than Horizon Air last summer. That disaster last summer was years in the making. The employees saw it coming. The line employees all the way up to mid level management were telling "senior leadership" about the mess that was building for literally years. Senior leadership didn't want to hear it as it did not fit their paradigm / business model - so they just buried their head in the sand. I think the final result was something like $17 million wasted? If they were going to "spend" $17 million one way or the other, I would have preferred they have spent it on the hard working employees of Horizon Air.
Remember our awesome (and unfortunately temporary) SCP who was told to do something impossible in a meeting? When he told them that what they were asking could not be done he was told to "shut up" by BM? Classy senior leadership. They prefer to live in their own world, reality need not apply.
So - the only way to effect change around here is for the entire system to break down - Horizon Air style. If the jets are on the ground, if the entire system melts, then the BOD will take action, and change will slowly come.
There will never be a strike as previously mention by others. We are Alaska. The State of Alaska will not function without us. Way to much money involved in Oil and general services to the bush communities. OTZ, BET, BRW, OME, not to mention all of Southeast will run out of milk and eggs in a few days without us. One or two phone calls from these tribal leaders to the governor and you can forget about a strike.
It's sad but true. The only way to effect change around here is for the entire airline to nearly collapse. Horizon seems to have survived it last summer. Maybe we will survive it to?
PackRat - you are 100% correct as well sir. Folks who have never spent any time in the bush or even heard of SCC don't understand.
So what does Alaska "Senior Leadership" (as they love to call themselves) listen to? The BOD - and that's about it. They will not make a move that goes against their paradigm / plan / business model unless absolutely brought to their knees by the consequences of their own actions.
Need proof? You need to look no farther than Horizon Air last summer. That disaster last summer was years in the making. The employees saw it coming. The line employees all the way up to mid level management were telling "senior leadership" about the mess that was building for literally years. Senior leadership didn't want to hear it as it did not fit their paradigm / business model - so they just buried their head in the sand. I think the final result was something like $17 million wasted? If they were going to "spend" $17 million one way or the other, I would have preferred they have spent it on the hard working employees of Horizon Air.
Remember our awesome (and unfortunately temporary) SCP who was told to do something impossible in a meeting? When he told them that what they were asking could not be done he was told to "shut up" by BM? Classy senior leadership. They prefer to live in their own world, reality need not apply.
So - the only way to effect change around here is for the entire system to break down - Horizon Air style. If the jets are on the ground, if the entire system melts, then the BOD will take action, and change will slowly come.
There will never be a strike as previously mention by others. We are Alaska. The State of Alaska will not function without us. Way to much money involved in Oil and general services to the bush communities. OTZ, BET, BRW, OME, not to mention all of Southeast will run out of milk and eggs in a few days without us. One or two phone calls from these tribal leaders to the governor and you can forget about a strike.
It's sad but true. The only way to effect change around here is for the entire airline to nearly collapse. Horizon seems to have survived it last summer. Maybe we will survive it to?
07-11-2018, 07:39 AM
#86
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2013
Position: A319/320 Right Side
Posts: 97
Aren’t there plenty of other carriers that could support the lift if AS pilots were to released by the NMB? There’s got to be a ton of charter, 135, cargo, etc that could fill in for a certain time frame.
07-11-2018, 08:31 AM
#87
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: 737 FO
Posts: 466
Eskimo Joe,
You and “clock out” guys like you are why we are in the situation we are. Apathetic clock-punchers who vote purely in their own special interests at the expense of everyone else here and the industry. I’ll bet you were one of the guys who said, regarding pay rates on the 09 contract....”it better have a 2 in the front.” So stupid. Well...you got $200/hour. You got your 2 while all the FOs were screwed because of the f’d up slope you couldn’t care less about. You, as a senior captain, “who got his” probably refused to hold your corrupt MEC accountable because you were “clocked out.” I’m telling you, worrying about everyone here and taking a few minutes here and there to try and fix things vs pulling up the ladder after “you got yours” wound have helped a lot. Instead, you and your ilk were probably too busy bailing the company out by flying premium last summer. Can’t wait for the top quarter to retire and move on. Pathetic embarrassment to everyone here and the industry.
You and “clock out” guys like you are why we are in the situation we are. Apathetic clock-punchers who vote purely in their own special interests at the expense of everyone else here and the industry. I’ll bet you were one of the guys who said, regarding pay rates on the 09 contract....”it better have a 2 in the front.” So stupid. Well...you got $200/hour. You got your 2 while all the FOs were screwed because of the f’d up slope you couldn’t care less about. You, as a senior captain, “who got his” probably refused to hold your corrupt MEC accountable because you were “clocked out.” I’m telling you, worrying about everyone here and taking a few minutes here and there to try and fix things vs pulling up the ladder after “you got yours” wound have helped a lot. Instead, you and your ilk were probably too busy bailing the company out by flying premium last summer. Can’t wait for the top quarter to retire and move on. Pathetic embarrassment to everyone here and the industry.
07-11-2018, 09:07 AM
#88
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,898
Ok, I can understand having weaker work rules and scheduling because the majority live in base and drive to work. But thats still no reason for not having scope. As the guy above said, the last contract was all about $200/hr and that was obtained as 12th yr CA pay at 2013 contract signing. The clock out guys got what they wanted. It was insulting to read the JCBA arbitrator comments on scope, but even they acknowledged that AS pilots never pushed for scope and management mentioned in the transcripts that scope came up only momentarily, but the pilots prioritized higher pay instead and the company went with it.
But hey, if you’re retiring in less than 5-7 yrs, so who cares about scope right?
But hey, if you’re retiring in less than 5-7 yrs, so who cares about scope right?
07-11-2018, 09:17 AM
#89
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2014
Position: Captain B-737
Posts: 290
Originally Posted by Moose
Eskimo Joe,
You and “clock out” guys like you are why we are in the situation we are. Apathetic clock-punchers who vote purely in their own special interests at the expense of everyone else here and the industry. I’ll bet you were one of the guys who said, regarding pay rates on the 09 contract....”it better have a 2 in the front.” So stupid. Well...you got $200/hour. You got your 2 while all the FOs were screwed because of the f’d up slope you couldn’t care less about. You, as a senior captain, “who got his” probably refused to hold your corrupt MEC accountable because you were “clocked out.” I’m telling you, worrying about everyone here and taking a few minutes here and there to try and fix things vs pulling up the ladder after “you got yours” wound have helped a lot. Instead, you and your ilk were probably too busy bailing the company out by flying premium last summer. Can’t wait for the top quarter to retire and move on. Pathetic embarrassment to everyone here and the industry.
You and “clock out” guys like you are why we are in the situation we are. Apathetic clock-punchers who vote purely in their own special interests at the expense of everyone else here and the industry. I’ll bet you were one of the guys who said, regarding pay rates on the 09 contract....”it better have a 2 in the front.” So stupid. Well...you got $200/hour. You got your 2 while all the FOs were screwed because of the f’d up slope you couldn’t care less about. You, as a senior captain, “who got his” probably refused to hold your corrupt MEC accountable because you were “clocked out.” I’m telling you, worrying about everyone here and taking a few minutes here and there to try and fix things vs pulling up the ladder after “you got yours” wound have helped a lot. Instead, you and your ilk were probably too busy bailing the company out by flying premium last summer. Can’t wait for the top quarter to retire and move on. Pathetic embarrassment to everyone here and the industry.
Right. Firstly, I have never voted YES on a contract here. Secondly, I'm a very Jr Captain and was an FO during the 2009 contract vote...again, I voted No. When the top quarter of the list is gone, I'm happy to inform you I'll still be here for quite a while. The FO's are "screwed" (at least in your mind) because of Alaska Management and their out weighed influence in Arbitration. The Slope is what it is because Management wants it that way and, as per usual in arbitration, they got what they wanted. Also, I commute. I've never picked up a premium trip or VSA'd in my life. It's too much of a hassle even when appropriate to do so.
Perhaps you'd be better served if you set aside your Millennial angst and sense of entitlement and focused on the reality of the situation. Your reactions certainly sounds as if it's fueled by your own self interests...which in your mind I guess you're entitled to do but no one else? What exactly do you propose this pilot group do to achieve our collective goals in 2020? Before you answer, I suggest you read up on the Railway Labor Act before you fly into the predictable, knee jerk, chest pounding tirade of regurgitated, unobtainable wishes that guys like you always espouse in these situations. The RLA is very real and you need to wrap your mind around what it actually means.
You were probably in the 4th grade in 1998, but look up what happened at American Airlines and the APA during their sick out. Is that your idea of a successful outcome? You are an employee. You get a W2. You have a union, and a contract. You and I will never run this airline. Frankly, I don't want to. I want the airline to be profitable because I've experienced what life looks like when your employer is bleeding money uncontrollably. Think unemployment check. When the union asks us to step up and help engage the company in 2020, I'll be there. I always am. That's when it matters. Until then, I set the brake, go home, rejoin my real life and forget all about the Eskimo. You can scream at the ocean all you want. I can't hear you anyway.
07-11-2018, 10:40 AM
#90
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2013
Position: 7th green
Posts: 4,378
Originally Posted by Saltlife85
Aren’t there plenty of other carriers that could support the lift if AS pilots were to released by the NMB? There’s got to be a ton of charter, 135, cargo, etc that could fill in for a certain time frame.
And don't forget moving the passengers. Shared Services cannot move the number of oil workers needed on the slope, much less the folks that need to come and go from the villages.
Plus you can't just toss Outside freight haulers into the Alaska environment and expect them to be successful. An old timer once told me that it takes about 2 years of flying in the State of Alaska before you've seen everything it can toss at you. Even then you can get a nasty surprise.
Take it for what its worth.
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