That's not the company's fault...

https://www.mojosavings.com/wp-conte...outhwash-1.jpg

Just a random observation, even if we had won the Scope ask as part of the 3 improvements from contract update 2017 this would have still happened. What was proposed then were weight and seat caps. There were no limits proposed for regional vs mainline scope in terms of aircraft ratios, block hours, or capping of total regional aircraft.

True however, it was meant to get “our foot in the door” and we could have build on that this time around. Limits need to include no additional Regional flying as long as Mainline Pilots are on furlough or in this case on EIL’s… Scope can be build pretty tight it just depends on what we negotiate!

Look I have zero problem being critical, and our MEC/Negotiators are drilling down in scope... so we’re all about to get a chance to put our money where our mouths are on the subject, but, 60 new captain slots, an additional 13 options in the next 3 years, and launching service to Belize seems like a pretty decent step forward to me.

Now Imagine if we had Southwest’s scope.

Yawn.

Traditional LCC/ULCC business model doesn't involve hub n' spoke with regional feed anyway. They got scope easily because
1) It was worth something in negotiations.
2) The company didn't need it anyway. Although SWA probably wishes they had more flexibility today.

AS pilots probably could have got it on the cheap too pre-horizon, although I don't pretend to know all of the history.

Pre 1986 Horizon or pre 2011 Horizon.....

https://simpleflying.com/alaska-cancels-a320neo-roder/

Alaska Airlines Finally Cancels Its 30 Airbus A320neo Aircraft Order

• by Jay Singh
• November 5, 2021

Alaska Airlines no longer has an order for 30 Airbus A320neo aircraft on the books. Airbus released updated orders and deliveries numbers of October with no Airbus A320neo orders recorded for Alaska Airlines. Further, Alaska Airlines also has indicated it no longer has any Airbus aircraft orders remaining.

Alaska Airlines no longer has A320neo orders

Alaska Airlines used to have an order for 30 Airbus A320neo aircraft on the books. The airline had never taken delivery of a single plane from this order as it wanted to move to a more streamlined fleet centered around the Boeing 737 MAX fleet. However, it maintained the order for quite some time before finally now canceling it.

Airbus no longer counts Alaska as an Airbus A320neo customer as of its latest October orders and deliveries report. Furthermore, in a quarter filing released on Thursday, Alaska Airlines detailed its order book as consisting only of 74 firm Boeing 737 MAX 9s and 12 firm Embraer E175s. The airline previously listed the Airbus A320neo as part of its firm order book, which is now absent.

Alaska’s Airbus A320neo orders

Alaska Airlines inherited an order for 30 Airbus A320neo aircraft when it acquired Virgin America. While the two airlines had complementary route networks, it became clear that the fleet would be a problem. Alaska Airlines had an all-Boeing fleet while Virgin America had an all-Airbus fleet.

Until 2020 hit, Alaska Airlines was operating a mixed fleet. It did not have enough Boeing aircraft on order to officially announce retirement dates for the Airbus A320 fleet, and the grounding of the Boeing 737 MAX clouded some of that planning.



Boeing was a financial supporter of the Virgin America acquisition as well. In a report in the Seattle Times, former CEO of Boeing Commercial Airplanes, Ray Conner, stated that Boeing had provided Alaska a $400 million loan secured by Alaska’s existing 737 MAX commitments. The relationship between Alaska and Boeing was quite strong. The slogan “Proudly All Boeing” was also plastered at the nose of its Boeing mainline fleet.


The Airbus orders remained on the book, but the carrier defined them as a “cancelable” order. At the latest schedule, the first of these aircraft were scheduled for delivery starting in 2024. However, it became evident in December that Alaska would not be taking on any of these Airbus A320neo aircraft orders.

Alaska and the Boeing 737 MAX

Alaska Airlines first started its real transition back to an all-Boeing fleet in November of 2020. The airline announced a new transaction that would lead to the swap of 10 Airbus A320ceos from Alaska’s fleet in favor of leases for 13 new Boeing 737 MAX 9 aircraft from Air Lease Corporation.

In December, Alaska Airlines announced an upsize of its Boeing 737 MAX order to total 68 new aircraft. This included the 737 MAX leases announced in November. At that time, Alaska Airlines also announced it would accelerate its Airbus retirements, so all of those aircraft would exit the fleet by 2023, all in favor of the 737 MAX. Alaska also made it clear it had no plans to take on any of those A320neos on the books.



Alaska added some firm 737 MAX aircraft a few times this year and also backfilled some options. It has a history of taking all of its order options, which could be a huge deal for its fleet, and may also help facilitate a renewal of the 737 Next Generation fleet in favor of the MAX aircraft.


Maintaining the Airbus A320neo order book had some competitive advantage for Alaska. If Boeing was somehow unable to fulfill its fleet needs, it could look to Airbus to renegotiate a price that would keep Alaska flying a mixed fleet without taking on the added cost pressures. Ultimately, Alaska and Boeing reached agreements that worked, so it became clear the Airbus deal would not last.

The one Airbus type that will stay in Alaska’s fleet for at least the next few years are the Airbus A321neos. Alaska has ten of these planes in its fleet with no clear way to get them out of the fleet. For now, Alaska will keep them flying. But, without the A320neo on the books, Alaska is further stressing its preference for an all-Boeing fleet.

I'm always disappointed by the legacy folks litany of excuses of why they don't have an industry standard contract. The crux of their argument is that "Alaska is different."

No, Alaska is not different, nor is it small. At 3,000 pilots, Alaska is bigger than America West was at the time when they acquired US Airways. Alaska is 50% the size of Northwest Airlines at its peak, which operated 7 different fleet types.
The consolidation of the majors has skewed perceptions and allowed the lie that Alaska Airlines is a small airline that can't afford good work rules to perpetuate.

The excuse making of why Alaska lags behind in contracts needs to end. Today.

I'm a somewhat objective observer. Correct that they (not me) should have dealt with this a long time ago.

Also true that it's harder than it would be at a ULCC, especially trying to play catch-up and acquire in one fell swoop what the other legacies built up over years.

well Alaska is different from the other airlines you mentioned.. Alaska is still here. To get a better contact you have to be willing to burn the house down. The older pilots with their pensions were not willing to do that. So, we have the contract they gave us.

They are now the minority and changes are coming. We will fight as hard now as they should have fought then. But they had other objectives.

That might be the dumbest post of the year… Pure nonsense, dude you are clueless. Gross generalization about something you know absolutely nothing about. Perfect, are you a member of team marvel by chance?🤞🤞🤞

well of course it’s a gross generalization, this is the Internet. It is however wrong to say I know nothing about it. Please enlighten us on how the pilot group fought tooth and nail to get scope before and after Kasher. How many Union leaders at that time ended up in Management after getting non industry standard contracts passed by the pilot group?

Apparently, I know more that you do. Or just more than you care to admit you know.

There's no quicker way to upset the old timers than to dispel the myth that they have the best jobs in the industry.

Or to call attention to their history of rolling over for the company in the hopes of securing a backdoor deal for the connected.

Being happy at Alaska requires multiple levels of denial. They don't appreciate anyone holding up mirrors.

Where we are now is we are a pilot group that has twice taken scope to binding arbitration, twice been told by the arbitrators that we deserved scope, and twice been told that they couldn't create an item from scratch. Other airlines have had to strike to get scope protection. Isn't that what American went on strike for in the late '90's? You remember, the strike that lasted 5 minutes before Clinton declared a PEB?
Yes, we had a no-strike clause for decades, but that went away in 2005 with the Kasher arbitration. He was the first to deny us scope while admitting we deserved it, the JCBA arbitration was the second. The company has told us to our faces that scope is "off the table". Right now we have a unified group, willing and able to ask the federal mediator to declare an impasse and release us to legal self help after a 30 day cooling off period. We tried to do this through arbitration and keep metal moving. There is no other option for us at the moment than for the mediator to declare an impasse and let the processes spelled out in the Railway Labor Act come to pass. For you to point to the past will only serve for this unified pilot group to lose direction.

So now the primary leverage is getting an impasse declared for the 30 day cooling? What do you honestly think the chances are of that.

Pretty good given enough time. What's your depth of experience that makes you think it's unlikely? Pinnacle?

Please inform us on your experience with the NMB.

You obviously didn't pay attention to Frontier's experience with the NMB. We were the textbook case for being released, but the NMB went silent when we asked them to declare an impasse in 2018.

Seems you didn't pray hard enough.

what will makes us lose direction is making posts like this and forgetting about 2009. Did it slip your mind? You know, the contact where pilots on property kept their pension. No room for scope improvements in that contract?

I think you meant to say “Contract 2009 where pilots got to choose what type of retirement they wanted and only some chose to keep their pension”. Poor comparison.

This is literally the craziest thing I’ve ever read on APC. Congrats!

and once again, where were the scope improvements? How is that a poor comparison?

Not defending the lack of scope. The negotiated changes to retirement had nothing to do with scope negotiations. There was not an ask by Alaska on retirement that we could have somehow traded for scope. They simply refused to discuss it and we were too gullible and believed Brad Tilden when he promised that Alaska Airlines had no use for and no plans for a 2-class cabin regional jet. He went on to point out that Horizon no longer operated jets and there were no plans for them to ever operate any type of jet in the future. He finished up by saying that the handful of CRJ-700’s being operated by Skywest on Alaska’s behalf were being sold and the contract would be terminated. Effectively ending any need for scope….Hook line and sinker we took it and were played the fools once again.

This is proof enough that the old union playbook needs to be thrown away. Having the old "get along to go along" philosophy has left this pilot group a day late and a dollar short for decades.

There's almost a regional airline-like mentality- where the senior Seattle lifers set the tone because the rest are moving on in a couple of years anyway. It needs to change.

Alaska is a growing airline that has ambitions to compete nationally against large competitors. Its pilots should have a contract that reflects those goals.

Have some self-respect and negotiate for it.

Alaska has no intention of competing nationally with anyone.

This is that whole self-respect thing I just talked about. If BM really wants 4600 pilots, they're going to have to fly somewhere outside of the PNW and AK.

Even if it's totally BS, they have made the claims they want to be a player in the US. If that's the case, then the pilots need a commensurate contract to go with those aspirations.

I've never met a pilot group with such an inferiority complex in my entire career.

Self Respect has nothing to do with your assertion that Alaska Airlines wants to be anything more than a Pacific Northwest airline. Yes there are destinations across the country but they have no interest in any kind of significant presence outside of the west coast.
Im not sure where the 4600 number comes from, perhaps that number includes Horizon and Skywest pilots flying for Air Group. There will not be 4600 mainline pilots anytime soon.

I heard 3600-3800ish the target for the end of 2026…. I like 4600 a lot better though, maybe that is a merger number.

3800 + HAL (800) = 4600.
thats gonna be a lot of airbuses to park

It’s easy to look back in time and Monday chair QB…. Let’s take an honest look though, not knowing the future.
I know it’s a weird concept but in a healthy economy, industry, with demand, one claims improvements.

2005- Legacy’s in bankruptcy. The airline industry was a disaster. Yup, we missed it, that was the year for huge improvements.

2009- Ah have you heard of the Great Recession? Didn’t the legacies furlough? I am not arguing need, but didn’t we furlough? It is honestly surprising we didn’t hammer out industry leading scope and rates in that environment.

2013- Well that might have been the first time we had something. We were on the front end of that one. Looking back, the time value of money was most certainly worth it JH.

2016- That was the year, but thanks to the merger, it was arbitration.

If the economy holds we finally have all the big three on our side this negotiation cycle. You will get us nothing with your perceived personal strength and nobility. It will rather be a simple case of economics and supply and demand. We will get scope, industry pay, a whole new scheduling package, but only if it all holds!

Keep telling yourself your better though, things most certainly would have been different on your watch. You would have brought the entire industry to its knees preventing UsAir, UAL, DAL, NWA, AMR, FRNT, HAL, Midwest, ATA, Aloha from bankruptcy. Yes, you are a member of Club Marvel.

3, yes 3 union guys left for management. Shame on them but 3 dude!

Since your so smart, how did the legacies get their scope? Honest question, please enlighten me

I have voted No for three contracts at Alaska, but I am a spineless wimp. I am sure glad we have you!

Jesus this is the most embarrassing scribe I've seen in quite some time. Stop talking and tuck your balls away, We all know you'll be the first to grab some sweet premium while Alaska pilots are striking.

When is this strike going to take place? I bet it’s right around the corner, days away😂😂😂… Talk about misinformed and uneducated. Yes, but let’s talk about nonsense…. Strikes and Burning the place to the ground. Yes, because that means we’re super tough, super smart, bad *masses that are finally going to bring Alaska management to its knees. Make way, “real Marines coming through.” You must come from CAP, you like running around pretending you are in a war.

MIGHT have been a good idea for Alaska pilots to look outside of the PNW bubble back in the 90’s and watch what was going down at Delta with Comair etc and get out ahead of it with a scope LONG before RJs ever hit the property at Horizon. Nearly every other major airline started scrambling for scope in the late 90’s.

So, yes economics plays a role…. But sure seems like a healthy dose of naivety as well. “They’d never…”

As a matter of point Horizon flew F-28’s(26 of them)from 1984 into 2004 so the “Jet threat” has been real for a long time. It was the “all CPA move” in 2011 followed by the removal of the remainder of the CRJ-700’s from Horizon that lulled everyone asleep….Turbo-props at Horizon and only 6 CRJ’s at Skywest for most was proof that Brad Tilden had spoken truthfully in 2009. Perfect set up to quell the “Scope” drive that was building and “Contract 200”(2013) sailed through without a whimper…That was the last chance we had…We would have secured the changes to scheduling/reserve, we would have secured competitive pay rates, we would have secured defined scope language…all of this in Contract 2018. The company lies and the proliferation of E175’s at Skywest and Horizon were in full swing, the change in attitude at even the highest levels of seniority had occurred …But all that was swept away with a merger and Alaska managers were successful at pitting the “Red Tails” against the “Eskimos” in all work groups. Nothing productive has occurred since then…The “Eskimos” have only themselves to thank for the swamp we find ourselves in today…..Ignorance, naivety and a skilled anti-labor executive suite have ruled the day…

You know you're proving my point, right? Like I need a "WTF" meme right now... Embarrassing.

I thought it was embarrassing accusing him of being a would-be scab.

Well Mr “I hate conflict so much that I assume the opinions of whatever group I currently associate with” If it walks like a duck and sounds like a duck…

Dude, sadly you are miserable. You blame AS for everything that’s wrong in your life, expecting somehow a job might fulfill you. You alone have created a web covetousness and anger. Yes, sadly you are the only one to blame for your unhappiness.

"It's just a job" is the final refrain of Alaska pilots who have lost the battle defending how badly they're treated.