E175 sfo
 

Hey guys. I was taxiing around in SFO the other evening and noticed every Alaska gate in the Alaska terminal was occupied by a 175. It seems since the start of the pandemic every carrier that contracts out flying has favored utilizing RJs compared to mainline to the extent that they're allowed per scope; however, I've noticed this trend more on the Alaska side vs. other airlines. I do not work for Alaska, so I'm not up to speed on your scope and various limits on mainline to RJ block hour ratios, but am wondering if this is becoming an issue on the Alaska side of things?

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Alaska doesn’t have any scope

In Feb 2009 Brad Tilden promised us that the E175/195 would never be operated for Alaska Airlines because it did not fit our business model. He went on to say that markets that other airlines were using it on we already cover with the 737-700. He said that the 737-700 had significant cost advantage over the 175/195 and that it was a “terrific aircraft” for both short haul and long thin flying. We have outsourced to Horizon Air and to Skywest approx 70 of the 175’s with at least 100 planned. And the 737-700 is now a freighter with a couple of orphans still hauling passengers....He told us that negotiating scope for an aircraft that was never coming was a waste of negotiating capital and we should use it for something else........

And that is precisely why scope is more important than pay scales.

Job security.

You know what, you get what you deserve! Why is Horizon even a separate ACMI? Should all be one airline.

No, you get what you negotiate. And Alaska pilots for whatever obscenely short-sighted reason never chose to purchase that career insurance.

Because Horizon Air Industries is not Alaska Airlines Inc. any more than Skywest Airlines is Alaska Airlines. One happens for now to be owned by Alaska Air Group and is 100% contracted to provide lift and the other has a contract with Alaska AirGroup to provide lift. Because Horizon has always been a commuter/regional airline and the owners of Horizon Air Industries want it to be that way. Beyond that there is no mechanism to merge a regional airline into a major airline. Trust me that Alaska Airlines does not want to pay 266.00 an hour for E175 captains.

Yes. And AS ALPA does not want to do an SLI with QX. They would rather COMAIR them first, for good reason.

There is no interest on anyones part...Have to formally acquire them just to trigger the ball in motion. There is no interest on the part of Alaska pilots to do what Jetblue did with the 190/220 and pay scales. We have one rate for 90 seats to 200 seats and the only rate adjust would be up for a larger more capable airplane. There is just no way to merge equitably

Speak for yourself. Maybe I’m just crazy but I’d gladly emulate Delta or JetBlue and add another fleet that would capture more flying for Alaska pilots.

I second that wholeheartedly. One list, no regional whipsaw.

And how is that working out?

190's? Sure, they belong at mainline.

But the problem is if you merge existing RJ flying, the RJ pilots will want a longevity-based SLI. You cannot legally staple them unless they volunteer to be stapled.

OO you can get rid of by letting the contracts run out.

But you'd probably have to threaten to shutdown QX and transfer the assets (ala Tranny)... how's that staple sound now?

Serious question: how do you get from here to there?

There are plenty of airlines out there without regional feeds, some of them are even hiring right now. The problem for many people comes when they are faced with the decision to actually do something vs. just continuing to talk.

Unless my recall of history is failing, 100% of those airlines are relatively recent (compared to the legacies) startups which never had regional feed to begin with. Their pilots locked that in with scope, and their managers went along because their business models were not very conducive to hub-n-spoke anyway.

What we're talking about here is how do you, as a pilot group, actually put the FFD toothpaste back in the tube.

Still waiting for an answer. Maybe the best you can manage is to put the cap on the tube before any more toothpaste gets out.

The reason for my statement is that if an Alaska pilot is truly serious about working at an airline without regional feed. If that is really the hill they want to defend. The jobs exist. Otherwise it is just talk. Saying: I don't want to leave because (base, don't want to move, seniority, AC type, kids changing schools, wife job, commute choices, etc.) is basically saying I am ok with being at an airline with a regional feed.

Easy, integration based on Alpa years of service. 170/190 pay 4th year AS FO rates starting and up, 170/190 FO rates 65% of AS FO rates, top at year 5. It's not going to happen though, check back in 5 years this will all be silly bickering.

In the worst year in aviation history my CA friends got 18-22K bonus, most FO friends 8-9K. This is embarrassing everyone. We work for a good company, show up do a good job and enjoy. Trust your union to fix what needs fixing.

We are about on target, let’s see what the summer brings. Relax, enjoy, and let yourself arrive!

Yes, I know it's not happening just curious as to the thought process of those who think it's worth discussing.

I have zero interest in merging with qx. Unlike the guy I was replying to I do have a strong interest in my career progression and if that is made stronger by a subfleet with a commensurate pay scale then count me in.

Well if I were King...I'd have a merger of lists that greatly favored Alaska pilots, and would aim pay for the airframe to be somewhere between what Horizon has now and our blended 737 rates, comparable to jetBlue's 190 deal. A junior airframe on property works for everybody, and I've never understood the senior guys' aversion to smaller jets. Not sure of the mechanisms that would set that in motion, but as a realist I understand the gross lack of appetite on both sides of the equation. It may be a pipe-dream, but one that would strengthen our collective bargaining power and career progression in the long-run.

What's the "good reason"?

I really don’t see how this could not be done with fences and b scale? I mean isn’t this like every airline in Europe?

We had 100 seat 737-200’s, 124 seat 737-700’s, 140 seat MD 80’s, 144 seat 737-400’s, 156 seat 737-800’s and 172 seat 737-900’s (w/ mid-cabin lavs) all for the same hourly rate....Where does a plan to bring in an A220-300 that flys trans con, can do etops and seats 115 -145 pax fit into that. Even a 195-E2 can fly 110 -140 depending on config...Why should we accept less money to fly a significantly more capable airframe then we have already had. Pre chinaflue Alaska had an RFQ out to Boeing for 700MAX, Airbus for 220-300 and Embraer for E195-E2. In Alaska managements mind those 3 airframes are equal period. So they pay equal....Jetblue just created a permanent B scale by allowing the A220-300, an airframe that hauls just as many pax as a 319, flies further and costs less to operate , to be flown for less....

Wait. You have friends that are FOs? Did you tell them you were salivating to lick their furlough envelopes stamp it and rejoice when when they were on the street? It's amazing how you've changed your tune so much. Attachment 6033

Like I was serious 😂. You come on here, appearing to struggle with numbers, letters, shapes, and colors. I honestly find it hard to believe you are really an Alaska pilot. The funny thing is, most my friends that are FO’s at AS have IQ’s of 125 or higher. I struggle with drivel and dude, all you write on here is drivel .

I couldn’t agree more, MAX 7’s and one rate.

I struggle with numbers? That’s rich coming from the guy who predicted our furlough to a tenth of a percent.

You must be bummed. You were looking forward to seeing your crying FO “friends” at the Wally Mart in Gig Harbor.


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700MAX all the way at one rate, absolutely. But that still doesn’t fix the outsourcing.

Am I missing something, does this dude make any sense to any one else on here, anyone?

True, but E175’s are never going to be flown by Alaska Airlines or the pilots on the Alaska Airlines seniority list. The last chance we had to fix it was “Contract 200”. We have not negotiated anything in the ensuing 8 years. Hoping for something in the form of scope and protective provisions by 2024. The next two years are toast as we torch the cash supply flying empty jets

Yawn. The concept of integrating a mainline list with a wholly owned regional has been kicked around since Delta bought Comair in 1999. It will never happen for 1000 different reasons. Talking about it is just mental masturbation. Arguing about is is foolish.

Notice that people like this never give specific reasons why. "1000 different reasons" is not an argument BTW

This is the typical "we're special at Alaska" mentality that got us in this position. Without scope all the bluster in the world won't stop management from having qx fly 190s or Cseries while you guys remenice about your special relationship with management that dulled your senses to the expansion of regionals over the last 20 years.

You keep believing your special and see how far that gets everyone. I can't wait to spend my commute explaining how we're the only airlines with regions flying 100+ planes for half what we could have done it for.

So your answer is to fly 100 to 145 seats at a 25% discount so that we can pretend like we have scope. Still waiting on the 50 to 100 seat plan...Lets do a 50% discount...Then we will have A scale, B scale and C scale...Sounds good to me. Lets propose it. We will use Skywest/Horizon rates for our C scale, Sun Country’s rates for our B scale and our rates for A scale. If you are a C scale crew you get C scale work rules and such......Get er done Mr Delorean

Wait...jetblue has a permanent B scale on the 220? And it is a B scale that pays 96% of their A scale? And by that logic, does delta have an A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H/I scale? Are you even familiar with the history of the B scale in this industry? Separate pay scales for different sized planes is not a B scale. What those rates are is up to the pilot group to negotiate. I’ll take JB’s scope and $220/hr E190 rates + $264/hr A220 rates ($224 and $269 next year if this LOA passes) over AS’s outsourced RJs and no scope any day. Also, just to be pedantic since it seems fitting for a response to your post, there’s no such thing as a 700MAX.

We’re sitting here arguing about whose contract is better when all 3 of our pilot groups will see losses due to the new 3 way between AA/AS/JB when the real winners will be management and the share holders.

In times like these the objective is not to be better, it's to suck less than the other guys :D

All you guys are on the board of directors? And here I thought this was a pilot’s message board.

Pilots don’t decide who merges with who. What you all think “should” happen is completely irrelevant.