Agreed with EJ. This job is just a job, in that it should not be your only source of income. I want to have income streams outside and separate from flying. So far the steady stream I have is from a rental, which coincidentally is my NJ home once the NYC base closed. Ideally, I'd like to have investment streams that can bring in at least $5-7k per month. Literally to do nothing and just watch diversified income roll in.

Soooooo sincere question. A new hire hired at Alaska today, could they start a real estate income stream equaling yours?


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What a joke, this pilot group will never change. I’m so glad I’m out in a few days

Best to you Hot Dog! If anything it will help or hurt my FOMO. But you’re a great benchmark as to my current predicament. Please keep us up to speed on life on the other side


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Since you said it is a sincere question then I will assume you are serious and want an answer, and the answer is that of course they can. They couldn't do it on first year pay obviously, but that holds true for any airline. While we are paid decent, and you can get a real estate income stream going while employed at Alaska, you could probably build that real estate portfolio twice as fast at any other major airline.

You got it NewGuy01, friends don’t let friends fly at Alaska without telling em to leave this Stockholm syndrome of a regional. It will finally be nice to make some real money flying the same jet with blue yellow and red paint.

Well I guess that’s the million dollar question now isn’t it. And, yeah, I’ve gotta side gig that’s doing pretty good as well. But while you’re puttin the onus on everyone here tryin to make fair points, come up with a plan, work within the shizzle sandwich and try and be condescending to anyone who’s ready to make whatever sacrifices they CAN make, you’re gonna need to explain how literally every other airline using the same POS RLA, somehow managed to get it done better than Alaska.

Seems from all the legacies I’ve talked with about it, there’s a myriad of reasons. I’m not one to point the finger and blame the past. But, good gravy dude, you got line pilots all the way up to the top of the Union pointing out deficiencies, trying to stay unified, work the system, be tactical, be measured, be transparent, remedy the pitfalls that plagued the past, and your response to that is to tell em they’re all just a bunch of whiners.

Hell we can get THAT message from BM himself! Standing with a strike if it comes to that?! You’re most likely correct. Very little chance we get to that. So your “I’ll vote no, no matter what.” And your “I’ll honor a strike”…. TODAY…. Right now? Those are useless. What are you doing TODAY to facilitate change…. Other than telling everyone pointing out the obvious that they are a bunch of whiners who don’t know how futile the RLA is and the only way to have a decent life at Alaska is having a second career in some sort of financial investment. What are YOU doing?

Cya at the picket on April 1? Or is that a stupid idea too?

I cannot believe people are taking the bait and seriously engaging in a discussion about income outside of what people make at Alaska. I could not give two rat's behinds what anyone does outside of work, and neither should anyone else. All this is is a way for people who clearly don't rely on their income from Alaska (bully for them) to distract from the only thing anyone on this forum should be concerned with: the state of things AT ALASKA. Period. Because some people, in fact, do have to work for money and this place nets people far less than every other airline that flies the same equipment.

Preach brother!

From my new hire class in late 2019 there are only two remaining from the six we started with.

I was sincerely hoping E.J. would have answered that question. The Seattle area has an insane increase in value, even since I bought my home 2.5 years ago. Just looking at market fundamentals anyone working the last two years is making 22% less today than 2 years ago.

It’s no wonder that contract negotiations will be dragged out as long as possible. We are working for a huge discount.

I don’t feel like it’s fair to point at real estate gains in the PNW and suggest a second income from real estate, if you got your start 20 years ago. It’s actually going to be extremely difficult for any pilot hired this year to gain enough traction to even buy a home in any of our bases for the foreseeable future. Assuming they do not have a down payment already available. Not to mention income property.


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That's a very reasonable position to take, and I often times think the same way too.

However, taking the glass half full approach, I tell myself that there are multiple kids being born right now, into ordinary circumstances who will grow up, get into real estate, and do very well, just like many ordinary Americans have done for generations.

If that is true, then I also believe that people can get in, in our lifetime, and eventually do well.

It's never too late.

That might have been true in the past, but the advent of investment buyers in real estate is a game changer.

Suddenly, real estate values aren't permitted to retract. It pushes the bar higher and higher away from first time buyers.

If these trends continue, where most Americans cannot afford to be homeowners, we're looking at the biggest transfer of wealth in generations.

You can thank the printing of money like there’s no tomorrow. Hopefully one day we will do a full report on Covid and the actions we took to fight Covid. Why did we print checks out to every American? Airline workers, restaurant workers, anyone directly affected, sure. But literally millions and millions of Americans had no pay cut or change in income, their job simply continued as work from home. They didn’t need the extra money, their income and job continued. And the first two bailouts, ok. The third round under Biden was absolute ridiculousness. Completely unnecessary.

Another huge problem is as people became work from home, they bailed on the big cities for cheaper states. But their employers NEVER adjusted their salaries to the new state locality! I know 3 families that left the Bay Area and LA and moved to MI and TX. They took their CA-level salaries and bought much cheaper (relatively speaking) houses (mansions) in those states. This absolutely sky rocketed prices. Even the small town my parents are in PA, people did bidding wars. Ridiculous!

My tenant in NJ stopped paying rent. I didn’t get rent for 6 months. I was down some serious money. Why? She had applied for rental assistance and because she knew there was an eviction moratorium. NJ pushed that out even longer than the federal deadline. Granted, she lost her job in 2020 but between stimulus, unemployment, and crazy hiring going on everywhere, one would think there shouldn’t be a problem? In the end, she got approved for 15 months free rent (from max 18). I got two checks from the state of NJ totaling 40 grand. Gee, I wish someone would my pay house free for 1.25 years!

This is all gonna bite us in the ass. So much money printed and thrown out like candy. The only reason the economy is doing fine is because people are spending money despite high inflation. Just watch, as soon as spending slows because people have had it with higher prices, we will stagnate the economy and have inflation sticking around due to various pressures in the entire system (including supply chain issues). Hello stagflation. Personally I think it’s inevitable and it’s coming.

There’s no easy fix for stagflation. IMO as interest rates come up and we have stagflation, I think housing will cool down a bit. Not drastic, and certainly nothing like the housing bubble bust around the GFC, but still think a nice cooling is coming up.

You know I'd love to have a landlord who cried about my financial woes online too.

Why? You one of those people who stopped paying their rent during the pandemic?

I did, I had too, this place doesn’t pay sh$&t year one at 79 hours. And who knew we would have a job.

I might be wrong but isn’t everybody’s pay shi#$$ the first year. Like less than $100 an hour for a narrow body. Granted it’s not the 36 bucks an hour it was two decades ago due to obvious crap like COLA and inflation. Glad your headed to a place that maybe you can make it up in year 2-4 that has a better contract.

Good thing you didn't work for Delta. New hires sent home from training were paid considerably less.

Of course not. Not unless they bring Capital from some other source. Guess what? When I was a new hire, neither could I. I developed Partnerships, formed LLC's and worked hard to deliver. Sweat equity turns into Capital equity. Look. We're all W2 wage earners. We're sitting ducks. The taxes are crushing. You're NEVER going to be "wealthy" when you get paid on the 5th and the 20th. I don't care WHAT Airline you're talking about. This job is nothing more than a safety net with cheap insurance, steady income, free travel, and an opportunity to play with the big noisy toys. None of which is to say I don't get it. Again, this contract needs a complete re-write. I won't agree to anything that isn't. That won't change where we are in the process, but that's where I stand.

Quick Edit: It's never to soon to start investing. As a pilot, we can all acknowledge that we have more free time than regular workers. Commute time, Hotel layover time, time off. That's Capital. That's an advantage.

AMF!! Best of Luck! Enjoy being a miserable, disgruntled little prick to the next pilot group!! You won't be missed. If you think this new job is going to make you happy and fulfilled, I've got news for you.

Facts would show that while AS is lacking in pay, QOL, contract, the first year pay and guarantee is comparable (or greater than) the other legacy airlines. 92.59 @ 79 hrs.


The first year through about 3 is somewhat comparable. The big problem is year 4-8 where the FO slope needs to be fixed.

Sorry. Been busy and as a general rule, I couldn't care less what is going on over on this site. As a Sincere question, my sincere answer to you...at least as far as real estate is concerned, why do you need to invest in Seattle? I agree, It's too steep to get started. Loads of investors all over the country are looking at secondary or tertiary markets like Witchita, Oklahoma City, etc. The West coast is too expensive. You travel for free. There's affordable places all over the country to start a real estate portfolio...none of them are Alaska Airlines pilot bases. Oh, and BTW, just for context or maybe inspiration, there's an FO at this airline that owns over 400 properties in Wisconsin. He blows me out of the water...

What a classy reply from a regional CA

North/Central America and the islands are a big enough region for me. I've got a life to live and it's not in a uniform.

You’re referring to your clown suite. I get it!

It’s weird that you’re telling me about free time on one post, then saying I should start an out of area or out of state business on another post.

I asked you if you thought it was possible to start a real estate business in the Seattle area because I’m assuming you did that. Likely about 20 years ago when prices were a lot different than they are now. To talk down to guys you work with because they don’t have a second income, when the rules of the game has changed is eerily similar to pulling up the ladder and say not fixing reserve rules when you have made seniority gains.

You should be thanking Hot Dog. The guy had the courage and created the opportunity to leave. It’s far more than I have managed lately. His actions will make this place a better one to work. Not the guy who bought some rental properties in Maple Valley when it was a bargain.

I’m constantly doing the things you’re talking about finding any way I can to make another buck. One interesting stat I came across: If you’ve been working the last 2 years you’ve taken a 22% pay cut due to inflation and cost of living increases.

It’s easy to see why our contract is delayed two years. It’s the deal of a century for management.


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The pay and quality of life are so bad here that we've had to divert the conversation to everyone's real estate empires to feel successful.

You've proven my point 1000x times over.

It just shows how out of touch they are as well.

In addition.

It’s crazy to see the senior guys insult and demean those who have left the job. Even though the people leaving are making it better for those who stay.


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It's not weird at all unless you're not paying attention. Who told you I have anything to do with Seattle real estate? I didn't and I don't. Never have. Let's do a little thought experiment. Let's assume I bought residential rentals in Maple Valley, (wherever TF that is) 20 years ago. Do you think I earned the same numerical hourly rate from Alaska? What about that inflation/deflation equation? Understanding that, was it really a bargain? IDK. If you're going to fabricate a 22% inflationary rate, (which I don't believe) you need to balance that ledger as well. I talk down to the eminently entitled little douche bags like Hot Dog because I find him pathetic. Who told him a Fking Airline was going to grace him with the most blessed life? Grow up. Your decisions are on you. Did Hot Douche not know where he was applying? Did the contract change for the worse after Indoc? I'll thank him for leaving. That's it. I don't need to sit next to perpetually aggrieved, quivering lipped little ***** for the next 4 day. I have every expectation, that he will carry that on to his next naive employer. As far as reserve goes, every airline has it. Some sit it for weeks, some for years, and a few for over a decade. All of whom are currently working pilots at Alaska and every other airline.

I'll ask again. Why are we here? I thought the new guard/VX guys were going to start kicking ass and taking names? If the new guys are so tough, why is Gerry Mcguckin been assigned to us by the NMB? This sure looks a lot like it did 25 years ago. You guys don't seem to have any new ideas that mean jack sh*t.

It's not McGuckin, it's Tosi.

As to the rest of your post... You know what else you can do besides sitting around waiting for something to vote on, is fly the contract. I can always tell when I'm flying with someone who knows what that means, or when I'm flying with someone who is content to go with the flow and make personal sacrifices at work because it's more expedient than forcing the company to follow the rules. I hope you are part of the former and not the latter.

Maple Valley is one of the places where real estate values have doubled in the greater Seattle area. Since I moved to Seattle, 4 years ago.

It’s pretty callous to insult those junior to you when the economics and cost of living has changed radically since I moved to Seattle only 4 years ago. For those senior to me the change will have been even more massive.

If anyone on APC has done anything to help the pilot group at our shop it’s Hot Dog. We should have gratitude for him. Not mockery and insults.


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Hahah your post is going to get deleted by the attorney in training and expert at everything (in his mind)


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Gratitude for what? Such pretentious and arrogant attitude for a newhire. Clearly didn’t tell his interviewers how he really felt about AS. Sorry, but he doesn’t represent this pilot group.

I didn’t take it as “we do this to supplement the income and make the equivalent to a Delta pilot.”

I take it as “this job is a paycheck job, you’d do well to find non-flying income streams from (anything other than flying) in order to bolster your financial security and freedom.”

For leaving. It’s a far greater catalyst for change than anything you or myself has done to better our position with management.

It’s the missing leverage you described.


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The attrition leverage? Yes, it is, but not in any great numbers to make a large difference. Sun Country didn’t get a new contract because mgt loved their pilots. They got a new contract because they only had about 400 pilots and something like 150 quit in a year. We had how many leave in 2021? 40? 50? Attrition here is about 1.25%. Nothing big to write home about.

Apparently you're not keeping up with current trends.

Yes, it will be interesting to see how attrition shapes up. I'm not holding my breath though. I know a Skywest CA who interviewed and was not hired. I thought she was a good person and would have been a positive addition, and the type who would stick around here long term. Clearly they didn't like her or thought different. This place is still picky. I know people who have applied but haven't been called, and cases like her that interviewed but got the no thanks.

There isn't desperation - yet anyway.

The fact that you don't even know who is assigned to us for mediation is telling...

If it wasn't for VX, the new crop of pilots, and the legacy AS pilots who are smart enough to see beyond Angle Lake, you would just be getting served another crap and weak CBA that you would pretend to vote no on...

The fact that our current union has pushed back on management ,and continually pushed for our interests to the point we got to NMB mediations should show you that this TA won't be made with some hand shakes on the golf course. We are in this fight, we are not backing down, and AS is going to have to come to the table with meaningful changes. Embrace the change of this 2022 pilot group and realize that the time for change is here. We have too much leverage, AS makes too much money, and the industry outlook for qualified pilots is too dire for management to ignore. Make sure you bid 4/1 off :)