737 Rate Proposal
 

Good luck, everyone.

Why do people seem to think the proposed rates are so radical? Everyone else is negotiating too, I guarantee once DAL's and UAL's rate proposals are made public ours will look pretty similar.

And for the love of god, for ONCE in airline contract history can we PLEASE PLEASE not get tunnel vision toward base pay rates or get blinded by dollar signs? They don't mean isht if the work rules aren't there to back them up and THAT'S where our focus should be after seeing that term sheet.

The rates are perfectly in line with what other carriers are proposing, again, why are Pilots fighting this? Some here have this weird “i want to get paid less because I work for this great company based in the PNW”… are you listening to yourself? You start higher and negotiate.

The pay rates the union proposed will be on par with delta once they get a new rates. The company doesn’t want to pay us, classic

Take the old rates of all the majors whose contracts ended in 2019, add 3-4% per year, maybe 6-9% for 2022, and see what you come up with. It’s roughly the Alaska proposal. Also, look at sun country. They are a small airline generally far behind everyone else in contracts. They just got $294 as their max rate. Thinking that 310/320/330 an hour is outlandish is not the way to be thinking about things.

delta/United are 283-285 an hour for 739/321. Here’s some math using 3% for annual raises and also using 4%. Also threw in some for 6 and 8% inflation for 2022, which is a bit more accurate.

2020 rates with standard increases:
3% is around $293
4% is around $295

2021 rates with standard increases:
3% is around $302
4% is around $307

2022 rates with standard increases:
3% is around $311
4% is around $320
6% is around $325
8% is around $330

Hey, if we shoot for Mars we just might hit the moon.

Are you guys kidding me, these rates are just $266 corrected for inflation. This is not shooting for the moon. We are just shooting for the middle of the road.

SWA 12-year captain rates from 2000, adjusted for inflation today, are just over $410/hr today.

What does the proposal look like? For outsiders.

12 year CA pay: $320. FO: $219

Yearly increase is the higher of:

5%/year COL increase *or* 102% the average highest narrow body rate between DAL, UAL, AAL, and WN.

Let’s see if management agrees to paying that. There’s too many regional FOs with little experience that are willing to go to AS to get a type and bounce. Why would AS management pay hirer rates when they don’t have too.

See me after class.

I’ll take it from here.

Hence the reason why’d they raise rates, so FO’s don’t come here to collect a type and bounce.

Typical ALPA, the captains get a bigger pay % increase than FOs.

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Because we'll strike if we aren't the highest paid narrow body pilots in the country. Alaska consistently posts the highest margins in the industry. Our bases are all the most expensive cities in the country. We fly the most challenging narrow body work in America: the arctic, freighters, ETOPs etc.
All of this happens on our backs while Alaska's business model (regional feed for American and One World) pays big for the stock holders. We demand our piece of that pie.

And its not only top pay that we want. We want flexible schedules, the best bidding system, improved vacation, work rules, duty rigs, and scope. If its not the best, we strike.

We've been paid enough for the last four years that everybody has their own personal strike fund. This time around pilots are stronger than management.

Hope it works out for y’all.

Yes. Since this is where most us will be spending most of our lives at. 12 year captain.

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Could someone please explain the benefits of an Average Daily Guarantee vs. a Minimum Calendar Day?

Thanks in advance!

Assuming 5 hours/day for both MCD and ADG...

MCD:
Day 1: Block 2, credit 5
Day 2: Block 7, credit 7
Day 3: Block 8, credit 8
Day 4: Block 3, credit 5
Trip Total Block = 20, Trip Total credit = 25

ADG
Day 1: Block 2
Day 2: Block 7
Day 3: Block 8
Day 4: Block 3
Trip Total Block = 20, daily average = 20/4 = 5. So the same trip meets the 5 hour ADG daily average as is, with no soft pay.

So ADG pays 5 hours less in this perfectly realistic (and likley commutable) example.

Unless I’m missing something, it seems like as far as a pilot is concerned, Minimum Calendar Day would be more advantageous than an Average Daily Credit. What are the reasons the Union proposes ADG?

Good question.

Correct. But I don’t think there are any majors with a MCD rig fwiw. JetBlue used to only have a duty period average guarantee. So, take off in the evening from JFK. Land in ABQ. Off for 24 hours,. Fly the redeye back. Get in at 7am and be done. Covers 3 calendar days, but only 2 duty periods. Pays 11 hours. When jetblue got their ADG (avg daily guarantee) in the last CBA, they kept the duty period guarantee as well, I believe to protect against having 2 duty periods in a day to pay each as a full day’s work (say a 0001 show and a flight ending at 0300, rest, then a short evening flight…that would have to pay 2 duty periods even tho it’s on the same calendar day). As there are no other majors who have a MCD, the jetblue negotiators said it wasn’t achievable for the last CBA negotiations.

My opinion (not an AS guy) is that all 3 have their place (as do trip and duty rigs). I believe a 6 hour ADG and DPA, plus a 4-5 hour min calendar day, should be standard. Hopefully you all (and the rest of us) make progress on that front.

I hope so too, but the current proposal is 5:30 ADG and NO min day.

If anyone is reading this and agrees that Section 25 (and Section 4 for ADG vs min day) of that term sheet need serious work, please don't just whine about it on the internet, take the 5min to text it or email it to your rep.

My biggest fear at this point is that too many people take their complaints only to the forums for too long and then a TA comes out that's majorly disappointing but still passes by a narrow margin. And then we're hosed for another 3 years at least.

There is no benefit of ADG over Min day I’ve been trying to tell everyone I know. There’s also risks that it will cost you money and you’ll be working for free on some days kinda like what just happened to me on my last trip. Average means exactly that the company will just average out the days and not look at the block. If anyone doesn’t think that they will pull shenanigans like this than I don’t know what to say. Correct me if I’m wrong but I believe AA has Min calendar pay as well.

If you want to know why negotiations take years and why pilots have to go years with an expired contract, look no further than this union proposal.

And not just the rates. The 102% snap up…🤦‍♂️

AA has 2 per duty period. Don’t think they have min day.

https://i.ibb.co/RyY6vpg/9-B9-ED9-DC...227931-CF6.jpg

courtesy of DALs latest contract comparison guide.

Yep, 5:15 per calendar day. I normally don't fly redeyes, but I traded into a trip with a trailing redeye last month. I still b**ched about the redeye (reminding me why I don't fly them), but it was nice to roll into work on Thursday at 7pm and be landing back home on Saturday at 6am for 15:45. I understand why folks (especially commuters) love these trips, and it has the added advantage of making the redeye flying a little less junior, which helps guys like me to avoid redeye flying if it's not your cup of tea.

This is from AA’s contract comparison guide. I don’t see a min per calendar day on there anywhere, but maybe I’m missing something. https://i.ibb.co/bvGFVVD/9-AB2-B912-...-AACEBC6-A.jpg

He’s talking about a min day guarantee, not an average daily guarantee. Where in AA’s contract is there a min day guarantee? I can’t find it, but I might be missing something.

My numbers may be a little off but when we agreed to a 5-hour ADG at USAir in the late 90’s, our min. credit per day was, I think, only 2? Point being the company immediately, and predictably, exploited it - 4-day trip, work hard the first 3 then one short leg home the last day you got hosed. All the 4-days started paying right around 20 hours; you need a high min. day to go along with ADG.

That entirely depends on what the ADG is. An ADG of 6-7 will negate the need for a MDG imo. A low ADG like 5 needs an MDG. 5:30…might be some room to make a crappy pairing like you describe. But not as much.

I’m in the same boat. No one I’ve spoken with, including Union reps, P2P, etc. can tell me how anyone (except the Company) benefits from a daily average. I vaguely remember a Union update indicating that utilizing a daily average would allow trip construction that enable a certain type of layover that “we all enjoy”, for example long Hawaii layovers. If the aforementioned is truly the benefit, it is no benefit at all.

Don’t have it quite yet, but the Sun Country contract that was signed has 5 hour Minimum Daily Credit that gets implemented on 1/1/24. Then it’ll be best of that or the 3.5 trip rig/5 hour Average Daily Guarantee that get implemented 1/1/23.

Hoping everyone gets a combination of the three on the books going forward, so we can all pattern bargain for better rig ratios in the next cycle.


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You're not - I just misunderstood.

Everyone should have the following. Minimum calendar day of 6 with a clause that says block or better that looks at the pairing on a daily basis so that you get the higher of the two. That way if you block more than 6 you get that for that day and say less than 6 on another day that you’re still protected with a min pay of 6 hours for that daily credit

We already have block or better by the leg, why would we downgrade it?

Everyone is trying to argue ADG vs MDG, and I say why not both?

Having a more rigs is better overall, and allows some flexibility in trip construction. Having a MDG around 3-4, which leaves the possibility open for some long, tourist overnights. And a 5:30 ADG that keeps the trip credit high.

I proposed 6ADG and 4-5MCD a few posts back. Worth shooting for
https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/3388131-post24.html