My expectations are very very low at this point. Almost anything will exceed them, because I expect nothing to happen and we are stuck tell after everything is done.

:eek:

This is rather alarming. That your union guys have less SA than me (anonymous line swine on the internet). But I have lived it twice in less than a decade.

You MEC should 1,000% be engaging vigorously and proactively with SY MEC and vice versa. Like yesterday. They should all be best buddies for the next three years. Fringe benefit: SY can leverage ALPA resources.

That's what I assumed, just didn't want to speak out of turn.

In this era it seems that anytime pax airlines do anything that's not strictly pax 121 they stick with 117.

this is huge. The DL NWA merger lost a lot due to the NWA MEC doing dumb egotistical stuff and not taking advantage of the full contract that the dominant DL MEC negotiated. Anderson ended up voiding it, and the MECs ended up having to give up scope to make it work. (Apologies to comair folks)

In the deal Anderson and the DL MEC negotiated there were a lot of concessions from the company and a big stock deal to all pilots in order to make the merger seamless. The nwa mec played dirty to the dl mec, arguing they should have violated their confidentiality agreement, all were replaced but one eventually.

Thanks, that context helps.

I 100% agree about the pay and work rules. At some point, we need to get some of that information out there for those who aren't too familiar with the SY contract and operation. I certainly don't spend my free time reading contracts from other airlines. Maybe I can throw a little something together later on.

I'm guessing that you're not a part of either airline in question and are here in part bc your the head honcho here on the forum. So far you have contributed a lot of insight which is very cool for both pilot groups who are facing a steep learning curve. Thank you for that.

I disagree with this being "likely." The general pilot community probably doesn't see how much of an odd duck SY is. I'd venture to bet even G4 management doesn't really know what they are buying. On the one hand, AS/HA is pretty darn complex in terms of international, ETOPS, multiple types, Amazon, etc, and they are navigating this process, so it must not be too hard, right? On the other hand, G4 is something of a limited operation buying a very nuanced operation.

If a legacy flight diverts into Laughlin it makes national news. SY has low time captains flying in an out in the dark on a daily basis, no news made. ETOPS, international, Caribbean, Amazon, charters. When it comes to charters, with unreliable information operating in and out of airports that hardly ever see narrowbodies, I'll give you that one, since G4 is king of operating at small airports. AQP vs non-AQP. etc.

Why do I think it's hard for these to companies to pull off what others have in the past? SY has spent 4 decades building a nuanced operation, it changes all the time, and we still have a lot of difficulty, even having done NAT flying in the past, it's taking a long time to spin that up again, e.g. Now, try to take 40 years of evolution of FOM and CBA details and shove them under an operation that doesn't include those details, and get the FAA to sign off on it. It's possible that G4 management is staffed entirely by people who are secretly black-belts in all these areas and they will handle all this deftly. In reality, SY is not an interchangeable p/n, and there could be many bumps on the road to single certificate, especially so unless G4 wholesale adopts the SY way of operation, which seems unlikely, but this also depends on G4 management's experience and mindsets.

And the most recent SY CBA has been designed around a lot of our unique features, so that's likely to come into play. AQP is one example that alone could be a show stopper. SY CBA requires AQP, G4 doesn't. How then do you get the certificate without either first getting a JCBA, or maybe bringing G4 onto an AQP? Things with the FAA seem to go pretty slow.

Hopefully these ramblings make sense. Over time it will come to light that in spite of the small size, there is a lot going on under the hood at SY. While OPSPECS are more "plug and play" type of interchangeable parts, the rest of our manuals and procedures are not.

If somehow it were successful, imagine the nightmare of trying to running dual CBAs with all that is entailed there. Anyway, there is a lot to unpack, but feel free to bookmark this and see how I did regarding certificate integration 3 to 5 years from now. I'm learning a lot from the information you all are posting here and will try to contribute a bit more as well.

If the entire decision-making managerial power is 100% Allegiant management, a lot will depend on whether they are willing to pay what it costs to succeed with respect to moving to a single cert and opspecs. It will probably cost more than expected, and present a lot of challenges that are not visible yet (as alluded to by Nibake).

I know nothing about the acquiring airline's management, but knowing about how things go in this industry it is often really hard to get the money guys to put out the needed cash for a durable, quality solution. Adding to that, any unrealistic deadlines from top management can cause long-term consequences. You'll have a fleet manager or chief pilot saying "we really need solution XYZ", and the word from on high is "make do with the cheaper faster solution".

Another question is the FSDO / CMO that will have jurisdiction, which I assume will be Vegas. Does MSP have to agree with any short-term solutions during the shift to single-carrier? What roadblocks await?

Given that this move is toward growing into a much larger airline, hopefully there is some willingness on your management's part to invest where needed to ensure long-term operational success.

This is the benefit of a fully unified group of 2000+ pilots - we can speak with one voice for those issues, especially where it takes a line pilot's perspective to overcome/influence management's cost-saving impulses and exuberance. Ask me how I know...

Everybody should go back and re-read this with the understanding that >50% of our Building C staff will be gone within 6 months. This is going to break us before G4 ever gets a chance to close on the deal anyway. Between staff and pilots attrition in going to hollow this company out.

I don’t know a single person that hasn’t put in their apps. Working for G4 is three steps back in every single one of our careers.

I've lived through one merger and am living the second in less than a decade. You learn a few things, whether you want to or not. Hopefully sharing is useful.

That would complicate SOC, although the work around is simply keep two 737 fleet operations, along with two pilot groups, in the interim. FAA won't care for that, and won't let it be a permanent thing.


JCBA would have to reconcile that, I can pretty much tell you that it's going to AQP for everyone, especially 737's. While the company might want to just remove SY from AQP the FAA will not like that, they want *everyone* on AQP and are unlikely to want to allow the SY operation to revert to the old system.


Dual CBA's will not happen long-term, unions can simply petition for single-carrier status. Unless the company just wants to own and operate SY as a *completely* separate airline AND *both* CBA''s have no scope.


It would behoove everyone to get as smart as possible on this stuff. Especially if the MEC and IBT aren't very experienced with airline mergers.

Great post. You effectively communicated the things rattling around in my brain. Feel the same way.
Moderator Rick, your insight is valued. Thank you.

Jude is correct, we are weird. Domestic and international PAX. ACMI cargo, major league team charters, charters of all types- casino to mil, VIPs to Kona. Supposedly a return to the North Atlantic.

SY pilots feel like they should be the highest paid in the entire industry and there’s an argument for that (what’s behind the cockpit door possibly changes not by trip, or day, but rather by leg)- unfortunately our profit margins were tied to surviving, not thriving.

And maybe that’s it. The entire thing will be blown to shreds with the just the most profitable pieces exploited. Nothing convoluted forward. But the contract to fit such an op will remain for years. Good luck. Will be fun to watch.