Comments like this create division. Perhaps you feel this way. What is the need to make this kind of comment publicly?

I've seen nothing like this from the Allegiant group, but yours is the second from ours that certainly takes a superior tone. If you feel that way, then you are better off leaving.

Do you have some unique attribute that makes you superior to the rest of us?

 

We had something like this with the VX group. It mostly had to do with the fact that they really liked their niche culture and schedules.

Also you have to recognize that there are many good reasons to leave SY or G4 for a legacy, and for some people a few good reasons to stay. M&A obviously brings all of those staying reasons into question, especially if you're on the receiving end.

AS attrition of junior pilots was heavier on the VX side for many years, as the airbus operation declined.

 

Maybe so.

For those who don't think that this merged entity is right for them, they should move on. There are absolutely many uncertainties to the whole situation, and the uncertainties are reason enough for some to leave, especially if they have many years left.

His first reason, the rumored draw down in the HQ and assumed pilot attrition are possibilities, and also a reason for some to leave. No argument there.

 

Valid thoughts. It’s not like that though. We’re just losing our identity. In truth many feel like we can be value add to the whole. Be it AQP, better PBS. International. Even cargo. And there’s the things G4 guys are better at. We’re in this together. And we’ll all come out better on the other end. Five stages of grief for our brand.

 

My comment and feelings about this are towards G4 management and not the pilot group. Specifically towards managements unwillingness to negotiate a fair competitive contract. Based on comments on the combined FB group many G4 pilots believe they are worse off than regionals. And that’s not because of their pilots. It’s because of the way their management treats them. And soon to be the way they treat us.

I’m not trying to be divisive, or to insult anyone. But we were hopeful for a new and improved contract sometime in the next three years. Now the feeling is we’ll be lucky to have an equitable contract sometime in the next 5.

And of course G4 pilots aren’t talking about filling out their apps and leaving. It’s not their business model that’s being threatened. It’s not their domicile that’s likely going to shrink. Their way of life isn’t likely to change. We’re not now trying to leave because being a G4 pilot is somehow beneath us. Our entire culture and work life is going to shift to something that we either don’t understand yet or don’t want.

2/3rds of SY’s flying happens outside of MSP. Anybody that thinks this domicile isn’t going to shrink is lying to themselves. We could have 120 pilots in each seat and we’d still be G4s largest domicile. (As JB has told us several times) That’s the top 1/3 of our captains that get to keep their base. And 20% of them still will be reserve pilots. Thats 10years to hold the domicile and 13 years to hold a line. By the time all is said and done (in four years) those numbers will be 14 years and 17 years respectively.

This just isn't what anybody who works here signed up for. It’s often said that SY pilots have a gamblers heart. The gamble hasn’t been paying off. Those of us at the bottom of the list have lost some hands recently. PBS didn't do us any favors by eliminating relief lines, CVG didn’t do us any favors, and now this. This was a big hand to lose. I can’t keep throwing my chips at the table.

 

Dude is 100% correct, working for G4 is a backwards step to anyone's career. Wouldn't be surprised if SY routes and flights aren't given to G4 to save even more money since G4 will never be allowed a contract. That's tons of savings right there. And yes that means those pilots would lose out on their bases and flying. Basically a whipsaw, and the since they are ALPA the Toonsters wont lift a finger to help, in fact they will probably help G4 screw the SY pilots for their own benefit. So stop pretending this guy said something wrong and attacking him for stating facts. SY pilots are in for a world of hurt. I wish that wasn't true but it is. They have NO idea how much Maury HATES pilots. Almost as much as the Toonsters do.

 

I can tell you that the G4 pilots are looking very much forward to those things that SY will bring. I also can tell you that there are a ton of us that are ready to shed the IBT shadow that’s been looming over this place for so long and we also know how much better this place will become with ALPA on property.

 

I have a couple of questions for the G4 guys -

1) There is talk of sending the maxes to MSP after the purchase is finalized but before the SOC because MSP is such a hot opportunity. (Set aside the fact that for years we've been hearing that it's not worth it bc the maxes are too expensive, somehow it's suddenly a good deal.) Before this was announced, what was the game plan for the max? I have zero context on the strategy behind those orders.

2) With the ongoing struggle for a modern CBA, are you guys not having bad attrition? How are you making it with so little hiring?

3) Is there limited leverage for negotiations? Our leverage has been largely in CA upgrades. The mix of flying, especially cargo redeyes, has made for some horrendous quality pairings, and our reserve is spectacularly bad, especially when understaffed, so most FOs are just not willing to become a jr captain. The more senior FOs get accustomed to a very cush QOL and are also slow to upgrade. We don't have a serious problem with attrition, just yet. We also have plenty of new hire classes lined up.

Ironically, this announcement has led to a massive influx in panic upgrades which kneecaps some of that leverage. However, we have a few more airplanes coming soon and we are still considerably behind the power curve. Also, as others have hinted at, there are many FOs and jr CAs who have decided to try to leave as soon as they can on account of the acquisition. Whether the Bldg C ppl will leave before the jobs are eliminated, idk.

Piggybacking on other's comments about our unique brand, it's pretty cool what we can do and how profitable we can be while doing it. However, if you start tinkering with what makes it work, you could easily make it a big, unprofitable mess. It's hard to overstate how much of a niche deal we are.

Some of our calls gave me the impression that this purchase is more of a desperation move "we have to do this." SY and G4 have struggling stock prices and somehow this is going to send us to the moon? I think the profitability of the venture is very suspect, but that's another subject.

Sorry about the randomness. As Roger Ball said, there are so many things bouncing around in our minds right now.

 

it’s the fact that MSP as a pilot base will shrink. That’s why half the SY group is at SY!

yes on the call he said it will grow. But NOT as a pilot base.

 

Apparently we got the MAX as a two for one special. Exact $ not known but it was a great deal and we couldn't wait for NEOs. Fuel savings is big. 10 more PAX. If Boeing would have delivered in time it would have helped with leverage. But the slow down at Boeing only created an over supply of pilots.

I could envision more 3 or 4 leg days for G4 pilots through MSP via our bases. I dont think the intent is to gut MSP.

Leverage? Yes. They did this to grow and make money. Hard to do that with 2000 ****ed off pilots. Personally I think they will get something done sooner than later. Especially with the right union reps in the room.