And you will undoubtedly hear a lot of rhetoric from G4 management about accellerated timelines, simplicity, flexibility, etc. The fact is, done - correctly - merger approval, SOC, JCBA, SLI, final merging of operations & employees - you're looking at 4 years out the door.

Yes, however they have an opportunity to make it worth while for both pilot groups to be on board by compensating us with good contracts. Will they likely not. Pilots onboard done fast, drag out pilot deals, drags out integration. At least the value of integration gives both pilot groups some leverage that we would not have had prior.

Absolutely correct. Under ALPA rules, which apply to ALPA+ALPA mergers. AS, HA, VX were all ALPA.

I can't find any such language in MB or AM, which is what will govern ALPA+IBT.

I don't think that's correct, but of course ya'll need competent legal advice (ALPA national would know the answer, not necessarily some local guy in a strip mall office).

This is RLA stuff, not something which a specific company or airline is likely to be able to circumvent.

The CBA is between the pilots and company.

The union brand is just the label for the specific pilots elected to represent the group. You could change unions and keep all of the same reps.


AGREEMENT EFFECTIVE
November 1, 2022 – October 31, 2025
between
ALASKA AIRLINES
and the
AIR LINE PILOTS
in the service of
ALASKA AIRLINES, INC.
as represented by the
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION,
INTERNATIONAL

I am seeing a lot of the same posts on the SY thread for the merger, I ask all the SY pilots to just post on this thread only for anything merger wise. You will ya'll about to learn a lesson how the west was won....

Whoever you are/whoever you really work for you're not funny.....

Sorry I'm not funny we all can't graduate from clown college like you....

You’re still retired, right?

how did you know the G4 IBT office was in a strip mall? lol 😂

I’ve been at two airlines that dumped the IBT. (ATA and K4) Best move we ever made at both places. The IBT will make promises or threats to try to keep a pilot group. Both are baseless.

This EBoard will focus on the CURRENT CBA negotiations. They will lock down a TA most likely by or before the summer. JCBA negotiations are a year to two away. It's why it's imperative that we lock a TA down NOW. The days of holding out for 30% unstacking or something else of that nature be dealt with during JCBA negotiations. Anyone that was focused or holding out for Delta +10 on day trips, it's over. Time to ******* or get off the pot.

We will have a TA soon. Mark my words.

I hope you’re right. But I fear Unterseher is going to get in the way and I don’t trust the IBT leadership at the national level to do anything to stop him.

the last thing Unterseher or anybody at the Airline division, national level, etc. want is to let Allegiant pilots vote on a TA. How do I know this? Because that is how we get screwed and everything Unterseher and his lackeys have done is screw us. They would rather flex their muscles in what’s app and with the media than lets us choose our own fate by voting on a TA.

Unterseher’s advice is probably wait for O Brien to call in a favor with Trump and get us released - Unterseher is that stupid. If he gets in the way then this acquisition a gonna delay a new contract for at least three more years.

Unterseher will do what management wants: continue to demand 30% unstack, delta pay + day trips. Management will gladly wait til 2030 to give us a JCBA.

I hope you’re right Chapi and we get a deal before summer, even if it’s peanuts because that would raise the floor for the real fight and the JCBA.

GU is facing his IBT getting voted out as soon as the SY deal closes. He needs to save face now and big time.

Theres nothing special about this Eboard, and they are still under the thumb of IBT and GU. I hope they have the balls and ability to do what is right and sign something soon knowing that regardless of what they do they will be voted out because this group is sick of the IBTs sham politics and corruption.

So is SC moving their HQ to LAS?

I hope Allegiant backfills. Anyone over the age of 30 that works at SC HQ will most likely not relocate.
Sure they may have their MSP Crew Base, but those with roots in MSP are pretty much hosed.

This industry, Jesus Christ.

F138-

Typical way it plays out, after observing many mergers over many years...

Acquired HQ goes away within a couple-three years. A handful of employees will get an offer to transfer to the acquiring HQ city. Sucks for most of the long-time, rooted HQ office people.

Some seniority list pilots in training/management will get a shot at keeping those roles post-merger. Not a good idea to go into Iraq and fire all of the government employees just because they're Sunni.

If there is a lot of fleet-specific support (sims, training, fleet office) in MSP (I assume there must be) that will keep a few more employees for at least a while longer.

Significant crew base remains, but likely smaller. Less significant or overlap bases might close, but that doesn't appear to be the case for MSP. Also depends on what does G4 want to do with this? At a quick glance it looks like the routes and hubs are complimentary.

What if management has other ideas? What if they plan to push the neg back tell Joint Neg contract? Would not seem the NC or EXCO would not have any way of changing that out come.

Sorry, business especially the airline world does not work that way. Corp will be moved to Vegas. Much of the supporting departments like will also OCC and such. At the end of the day there will be less seats for those holding similar positions some will not have a position after. Especially if not wanting to leave msp. It sucks been and know a lot of people that got short end of the stick after these.

everybody should ask: if given the choice, would Maury buy another airline if one of the benefits is to keep the lowest pilot costs in the industry?

Every pilot here would answer yes to that question.

result: don’t expect anything quick from management.

Even if RJ is reasonable and tries to get some watered-down pitiful TA for us to vote on, management probably wouldn’t even give us brochure rates. I bet management would reluctantly offer SY current rates just to save face and keep the NMB away.

answer is we are looking at JCBA and a new contract in 2029 at the earliest.

I do not disagree, that is why the question was to Captainbfv. He seems to think his new dream team is going to work some magic and get some kind of deal prior to the deal closing. I agree with you and think more likely the company will stall tell the joint deal which puts this all back 2 to 4 years.

Will be interesting to see how many current G4 people think it will be worth the continued wait

continued wait to possibly end up as the lowest paid overnighting 737 pilot in the industry. many have said that these 737 need to fly 12 hrs a day 7 days a week and overnights are coming. there goes the QOL, now we're just another 737 flying airline that does overnights for less, at least for the next 3 years maybe.

wouldn’t be shocked if only a handful of dispatchers make the move to LAS. They have a very very senior dispatch office there with a ton of Mesaba and Northwest refugees there. Many of them will likely just retire.

This is why it’s important to see all the work rules Sun Country added in the 2021 CBA to protect and pay us for multi day trips, and red eyes. Min day, trip rig, premium pay escalations with no cap, max duty and max legs on the back side of the clock, re assignment and re scheduling rules and pay additions when rescheduled. We need extended duty pay, and sit pay in the next deal, industry normal LTD, 401K. ALPA national, the current SCA council and negotiating committee are all aware of what the other big ALPA carriers plus Southwest have and what we need going forward. ALPA works very well in climbing the peg board with bargaining and extracting all the value you can get out of a contract.

Look, anything is possible right? But, all I can say is based on what I'm hearing in my conversations, it appears that both sides want to seal a deal. As far as GU or National getting in the way, my understanding is that there was a serious conversation recently were RJ told the IBT to not meddle, or intervene or they WILL lose this pilot group to ALPA much, much faster. From what I was told, it appears the IBT was very receptive. As far as the company goes, I was also told that the leadership told everyone on their side to put their "guns" down, and lock down a TA. So I just encourage everyone to see what happens this week. My assumption based on the current information, we should see progress.

The acquisition announcement definitely changed the dynamic. Not to mention from what I heard the mediator is not going to entertain any impasse, or proffer talk. It is very clear to me now, that although we can blame the company, the fact remains that it was the NC that conducted themselves in a very amateur manner, and that their only goal/agenda was to achieve an impasse. That is absolutely dead right now. No more games. We're going to have to lock something down, even if it's "watered" down.

Like Nate said, and I've been saying on Whatsapp and FB, if we don't lock SOMETHING down, and soon, we will be negotiating from were we currently are for years. We are now in this position because of the absolute arrogance, ignorance, recklessness from short sided individuals that wanted too much instead of bringing actual progress and improvements. Their past comms said it all! It was just chaos, shifting the goal post, and narrative control. A whole bunch of half truths and nonsense almost got us iced out (AGAIN).

After THREE different mediators, it was beyond clear to me who was the real problem here. I was branded a company plant and other nonsense bc I called out their bluff. It is what it is... time for a TA ladies and gents.

I hope you are right Chapi but I will remain skeptical of management actually wanting to get a TA quickly. The merger is announcement is an absolute gift and every industry insider believes the regulatory process has no chance of messing this up because the only “competitive” implication is what to do ATW/RSW…one single route.

this will have absolute zero impact on pricing. So this deal, by all accounts is gonna close quickly. Two tiny airlines with no overlap whatsoever. Even Minny politicos aren’t screaming about it because Allegiant is better than some other airline that’s gonna destroy the MSP market.

so where does that leave us? With VERY little time to get a deal done which allows management to “pretend” to show some effort and bargain in good faith but not actually offer anything.

we will see, but management has 100% of the leverage and NOT doing a deal will be what the bean counters want to do. The savings in pilot pay will give them their sacred Op Margin: their one and true worship.

I just don’t see it but hope I am wrong. I hope management has learned that to truly be a big boy airline you cannot always pay pilots the bare minimum. The FAs seem to love their deal and management could have delayed that for years and kept them at rock bottom pay but they didn’t. So I’m open to the possibility I could be wrong, but I am very skeptical.

I’m rambling rambling so I hope you are right Chapi

I agree with pretty much what you're saying. I'm very optimistic of course bc of what I'm hearing, but I do agree with you, there is a bit of skepticism even from me. Which is why I want to see what happens this Thursday and Friday. I'm sure we will get union comms afterwards, and of course I will continue to converse with many. I pray I don't get this one wrong. As like many other things I've spoken of, there's always a part of me that hopes I didn't call it incorrectly. Which is why I try not to boast when I call it right, bc I know there's just something else around the corner I could get wrong.

But we'll see my friend. Fingers crossed! Cheers!

I’m hearing that the labor disputes must be calmed before the transaction goes through. They can’t go into a merger with 1300 ****ed off pilots who are owed a lot of money This is why Captainbfv might be right in this case. Most likely we will reach a SUBPAR agreement sometime this year.

Maybe we could bring in a copy of the Sun Country contract and say give us this and the retention bonus. Done.
It seems like having pilots work under totally different contracts and pay scales during years of JCBA negotiations is going to be complicated and demoralizing. Particularly if we’re working for 1/3 less pay than our colleagues.

This makes sense, I don't see how dragging out your CBA helps the ownership at this point. Hopefully it is something you are satisfied with.


I'm hoping for some jointly organized efforts to get to know each other and become familiar with everyone's concerns and objectives.

Being part of a smaller group all these years, I am encouraged by the idea of having a much larger bargaining group in the future. You guys broke the thousand pilot mark, which is significant, now we can crack 2000. Throw in some growth, and we are off to the races.

JCBA is usually super abbreviated compared to typical sec 6. (Think months not years) List integration is a huge piece of leverage, hence why many groups go in that order…JCBA then SLI. We already have been offered better than SY +$80 so let’s not start saying we’ll take what they had in 2021. We should be expecting more like the company’s last comp proposal IMHO with a caveat that negotiations resume immediately upon merger approval or denial.

You’ve gotten things right? You make my head spin! Weren’t you pro JR and his NC, then pro GU, pro IBT, then anti GU, pro ALPA, now anti JR and the old NC, and pro RJ and the current NC?

At time of merger approval, HA contract had some time to run, but AS was up. Rather than try to deal with two negotiations in parallel, the company just extended the AS regularly scheduled raises by a couple years to bridge the gap. Probably best for all involved, and I assume your pilot group would get to vote on it.

AS/HA JCBA is heading into years territory, at least a couple. It is more complicated with all the WB stuff, but I have the sense that company is fine with lower costs on the HA side for a while longer.

SLI might grant them more flexibility but it might also open up a lot of short-term training churn as people bid into newly available opportunities (especially in our case). So I wouldn't automatically *ASSume* the company will want it quick.

The order of JCBA then SLI is codified in ALPA policy and hopefully every ALPA CBA. I'm not sure if that's entirely up to the pilots unless it's in one CBA or the other. Might have to hash out the order with the company as part of a TPA. But yeah there are several good reasons to do JCBA first.

So I guess it comes down to what scope language SY has?


I would assume that this merger will get approved, quickly.

Vote? Like how they voted for a Retention Bonus that ruined all leverage in negotiations and handcuffed so many from leaving? Or like the vote to remove the union prez and replace him by Toonster nationals with their own self-interest to prevent any contract? Or like the vote for ALPA while they attacked members and threatened them with legal action for pushing cards and then told them they would lose HUNDEREDS OF THOUSANDS in retention bonus payouts if they left Toonsters? Oh wait......there was no vote for any of that. So why expect a vote now?

Do your union rules require a vote for compensation changes?

Toonsters don't care about rules. And no, there was no vote for the RB, an avenue of attack to NOT pay it the company possesses.

Well hope your right, had heard different comments had come out of management saying it stays the same tell after. I would say they have very little time and if very little to no progress is made this week getting something prior to the deal will be hard to impossible.

Yes any change of the contract via a new TA or some kind of MOU for Pay and retirement would have to be voted on by pilots

This number might be a bit skewed. I've seen a pdf making the rounds, and it's not based on the current SY pay. I think it's based on DOS+2.
The slopes are a whole other subject, but for now here's what sy rates +$80 would look like.
FO year 1 - $168
FO year 12 - $274

CA year 1 - $300
CA year 12 - $373

I would love to see you guys get those number, but I'm thinking some data might be inaccurate there.

Now, if I could get my screenshots to upload.

Upload not playing nice today.

https://imgur.com/a/ljsDOqt