so our leverage is that we will throw a temper tantrum and be ****ed if we don’t get a deal before JCBA?

we have zero leverage which is why we don’t get a deal before JCBA. Don’t get your hopes up. I’m hearing the last couple didn’t go well and that the union has even less leverage than we thought. Just kept hearing over and over how Unterseher has *******ed us and it will take years to recover. Old NC is to blame too, but Unterseher and his handpicked lackey Wentz have *******ed us with the NMB. Needless to say the IBT is gone. O’Brien is an idiot for pretending to know anything about pilot labor or the RLA. Still can’t believe Unterseher has been able to destroy this group.

1) CVG will be the next announced Max base (rumor). It will operate as a midcontinent base to spread out flying and have crews in place for Amazon. MSP WILL SHRINK!!! But I wouldn't think displacements, more like no backfilling and those who already commute will more than likely end up in CVG (perhaps IND) The Max was MEANT to fill out an order because the NEOs were too expensive and far out. That has changed since the company can't grow a single route organically, in fact overall load factors have shrunk. So eventually all Airbus will be retried.

2) No attrition whatsoever. Like none. Not sure if I'm allowed to post links or direct people to outside websites, but there is a G4 pilot that runs a seniority tool you can access, this information can be gotten on the social media pages both pilot groups have access to. Last month only 4 G4 pilots left property despite the few on here and on FB claiming 50% of all pilots are trying to leave.......so just goes to show you how most people are just talking out their @@@. In fact, according to the company (take with giant stack of salt) they are overstaffed. This is true....sorta.

It's the mini base structure that is hurting the company; it is both the reason people aren't leaving and the reason a contract can't get done. For example, a base like VPS (one of many mini bases) only has 3-4 months of flying a year, in that span they fly 95 hours monthly and makes the company lots of money, the rest of the year it's minimum guarantee for pilots and like 50-60 hours of flying. This means they (the company) are paying pilots NOT to fly. Hence the current impasse with contract, the company it trying to eliminate this waste and the small base pilots want Delta Pay +10 and not work 9 months of the year. So no contract.

3) I think my explanation in section 2 answers 3 as well. Tho I will take a moment to point out that the Toonsters did hire an outside negotiator that agreed with the company to allow for Forced Upgrades and tracking software on personal devices. Not sure if that got fixed or not. Haven't gotten a single new hire in over a year.

Yes you can if it's useful relevant info, in the correct forum, and not blatant advertising or spam.

AS gave us a couple years extension on the regularly scheduled raises, to bridge the gap between the end of the AS 2022 contract and JCBA. Didn't address any other contractual issues but probably still the best way to do it.

1. Eventually all 73’s will be retired too, they are getting rid of the older planes. It’s not a commitment to a single fleet type its a practice growth decision. If the can pick up more airbuses that match our ops requirements they will.

2. That tool and the seniority list are both a bit behind. People are leaving but not like they were before the retention bonus…biggest leverage killer ever but wasn’t much we could do about it. Its either mini bases or overnights, we need somewhere to park planes at night. I wouldn’t argue that the small bases are a detriment to getting a TA after all they were the companies idea not the pilots. I’ve heard management goes back and forth on them but as with anything at G4 if it was cheaper to get rid of them and do overnights we would. Also DL + 10 is about right by the way, they are in sec 6 again and by they time they sign their next TA our DL +10 will be -40.

3. Meh this part is a quasi true. John Owen who is one of the best negotiators in the industry is who the union hired. But then the Toonster stooges fired him because they said he was too friendly to the guys that were in there before GU. Probably just some excuse because he wouldn’t be GUs fluffer. Anyway somewhere in the chaos of GU’s reshuffling and firing of NC members to find ones loyal to him GU missed or allowed that company change. It wasn’t John bc someone leaked the language of that section when he left and it clearly protected against tracking.

Also side note: Im curious what the SY scope section says for merger protection. our CBA requires that a SCBA (JCBA) be in effect before SLI.

Then you're good, JCBA will have to be done first. They can't violate your scope, even if the SY CBA says something different.

Extreme hypothetical, if one CBA said JCBA then SLI and the other CBA said SLI then JCBA, the company would have to negotiate how to reconcile the conflict. If they couldn't get the unions to agree to some compromise, then legally they can't do the merger.

In reality SY either has the same provision (likely since they're ALPA) or they'd be happy to do JCBA first anyway... all you have to do is read up on US east to know why.

Sorry to sidetrack this convo because I am learning a lot. Do you think G4 management looks at SY’s Amazon “focus cities:” BNA (duh), BWI, AFW, MSY, CVG (duh), SBD (vomit), etc and sees opportunities to build pax flying in any of those regions?

I feel like one of the keys to this merger panning out well for the business is to grow the airline into markets that mimic what SY does in MSP.

I think it’s a fair assessment to say CVG and BNA would continue with the cargo complementing the scheduled service and seasonal flying. I know we’ve been trying to expand BWI and MSY for a time. It all will depend on which side of the coin this small base idea lands. Personally I don’t think they will get rid of it. Just not enough gate space in places like IWA, PGD, SFB…etc. cheaper to make small bases than overnight and pay for hotels, contract mx, gate space and the like.

No more temper tantrums allowed my friend. From what I've heard, there is collaboration happening on both sides. Remember when a certain candidate running for President claimed that that's what he was bringing to the negotiating table back in the elections of 2023? I think we all do. From what I've heard all parties involved in mediation last week were pleased with the progress, and there appears to be appetite to expedite this CBA issue. The company is seeing an uptick in resignations with all the hiring, and since the acquisition announcement they are on the same page as the union on the urgency of the matter. I remain firm on a TA reached before or by June.

We shall see, They have very limited time or the company punts this tell after the deal closes. I would say they have 60 days to get the deal done. No more temper Tantrums the King of Temper Tantrums telling others to chill. I guess we will see how long your loyalty will hold for the current group.

We shall see my man. We shall see indeed.

Representative Vote?
 

Color me concerned at this point in time. Since the merger, we’ve gotten one single communication from our new union leadership, one negotiation communication that the chairman contradicted the moment it was published, and a word salad explanation of the merger process.

Meanwhile, I just saw this morning that Sun Country Executive Board has an entire website, educational videos, etc?

It’s almost like the teamsters want to be voted out?

Yep, its amazing how every time its suppose to be different. We are going to do better than the last guy. Then it is not. Its like they have all gone into hiding. Even members on their team that would scream daily about no info not info have not said a word. Once again they will mess around trying to get the amazing deal to prove they are better than the last. In the end we just get nothing but an email once a month showing us money we do not have and maybe never will.

I would expect that from alpa national considering they are keeping most of the dues. We should be looking at ourselves to spend more money since we're keeping over 75% of our dues in the local. I'm sure there is a lot going on with the new eboard.

SY pilot here. I consider the money that goes to ALPA dues to be the best return on investment I've ever spent. The last few years they've returned dues to pilots that were in excess of what they need to represent us. They also care about small carriers like us and have funneled extra funds into fighting against typical anti labor firms such as F&H.

I don’t believe this is accurate. I’m going to ask around and see if I can’t find a breakdown of ALPA dues allocation.

I will agree with the rest though, we brag about all the money we have as a local, all the “experts” we're free to hire, all of the good work we can do. Yet nothing ever gets done. I voted for this current executive board somewhat enthusiastic that they’d bring change. I am deeply concerned JK was made chairman of the NC, he’s vile and a disruption to bargaining. I’m growing more concerned by the day at the silence from our union. What happened to RS as the communication chair? Did he quit?

In that word salad explanation of the process the other day, it sounds like IBT expects the NMB to hold a vote now? Shouldn’t it be all hands on deck to show why our dues should continue to go their way? I’m concerned that they don’t have any hands to put on deck. Let’s be honest, we aren’t Amazon so I doubt outside of GU there’s really much interest for us at IBT HQ.

The MEC and NC held an all pilot call going over a plan and estimated timeline of this process. Obviously timeline is up to the C suites and BOD at this point. They held a Q&A to answer some questions. Like MSPLCP said. The dues are all worth it and in the end, it’s a fraction. They have refunded 100 million in dues in the last two years to members. About 16%. ALPA will give us all the money we need to achieve our goals.

If you know something they don’t, Volunteer. They probably could use the help.

Okay Dad. Just love it when people fire back with, “Volunteer then, if ya don’t like it.” Reminds me of the Progressive Insurance commercials-becoming your parents! ; ))

With JK running his mouth the way he has the past few days, it wouldn't surprise me if he ends up hanging himself out of the NC chair position. Too much ego, just like all those before him. This EXCO definitely won't allow any sort of one man freak show in negotiations. If he still thinks that fighting, throwing fits during negotiations, or even thinking that a strike is the only solution to all of our problems, then yeah, he's not going to last much longer. JA now running his mouth on the BUS chat is also quite hilarious. He should come clean and tell everyone how he alone out the retro pay on the table, because he couldn't read the room; never informed GU or legal of the move. GU and the IBT attorneys had to clean up that mess. Which is why two weeks after the NC announced retro, it was removed from negotiations.

Once we get a TA in a few months (weeks), a lot of people are going to really begin to ask why the prior NC wasn't able to lock something down. And believe me, claiming that it was the company's fault won't cut it.

I’m not one to typically condone calling for legal action against individuals who are “volunteering” on our behalf—but at which point does their action cross the threshold of becoming illegal or at minimum, a breach of their fiduciary duty to our members or their duty to fairly represent?

With the amount of money that’s been lost by 1,400 pilots, the number of good pilots who left because it was dragged on by the NC, among many other impacts, we aren’t talking about charges like KS expensing a bottle of NyQuil. You’re talking about an impact valuation measured in the high 8 figures, maybe even 9 figures. One could argue incompetence, but at some point they crossed the line into wrongful intent.

Only my two cents, nothing more, nothing less. Hurts to see 1,400 pilots and their families all impacted by the actions of 4-5.

I had a similar experience with ALPA. We had a special assessment that was never used. A couple years after I had quit that airline I randomly received a check in the mail for $600 as a reimbursement.
I'll never see the special assessment money taken from me by teamsters and will never receive any benefit from it either.

I agree with this. As a small airline, ALPA has provided support beyond what would normally be expected based on dues and pilot group size alone.

I would compare it to a small suburb that receives county or state funds beyond what its tax base might support, because it is in the interest of the county or state - and other suburbs - to ensure effective police, fire, water, etc.

There's no better way to see the value of those dues dollars put to work that to volunteer for a committee. The collaboration with committee members from other airlines is also valuable, and when a small carrier doesn't have the internal resources for a specific skill set (small pilot group), other carriers will often lend their experts to the small one. Examples could be safety, FOQA, PBS, insurance, etc. Being able to call up someone from DAL/UAL/ALA/SPA/FFT etc. can help you jump ahead and get problems solved without having to do all the legwork yourself.

I am hearing some major gripes already with JK. He’s now filled the ego maniac chair. He’s the smartest guy in the room etc.

He won’t last long. The new leadership is already tired of his ‘know it all’ attitude.

He’s also making the NC put everything on hold while he takes his vacation. I’m not against vacation, but this smells like Robles all over again. Making us all wait even longer for a deal so he can take vacation is spitting in our face. Did he work Thanksgiving? What about Christmas? He gets every holiday off as part of the NC and you know they’re not meeting on those days.

I am beyond furious with these Union reps acting like Washington DC big wigs who talk down to the people and insist that they know better than all of us. Just get rid of him already

Ha I knew it was just a matter of time before you posted something like this about him. All of this has been very predictable. They couldn’t remove him right away or it would look too obvious. He’s the last one in there holding the line but I’m sure he will be removed soon so you all can TA and vote in your weak scheduling and scope. Congrats on getting your way soon.

NO ONE Person should ever be so important on a committee that the committee can not do work without them. If this is true this is not being in service to the pilots that diverse your best efforts. Especially after 5 years of neg.

JK’s groupies were embarrassed in the election. He knows what the vast majority of us want and his ego is won’t let go of power. Hes an egomaniac who thinks everybody is dumb and he’s got the whole thing figured out.

He thinks his vacation and ego are more important than the 700 pilots who voted him out.

Whatever TA goes out to vote will at least let us collectively determine our own future instead of JK, Josh, JR, etc

You forget Chairman Killen understands things that we mere mortals can only wish for. His knowledge of the industry, economics, scheduling, revenue, network, profitability, accounting, AI, navblue, etc is unmatched.

without Chairman Killen we are all doomed, only he can revolutionize this place. He is a disrupter. An innovator. A true intellectual.

Or as they same in some cultures, a truly stupid son of a b*tch.

Have no fear, the man with the pay to play MBA is here to save us all.

You are 100% correct about the SY coms. At the all pilot call they hosted earlier in the week, most of the pilots already knew the information thanks to the emails, infographic, videos, and website that were put out in the last couple of weeks.

As others have said, in cases like this where we are a "little" airline dealing with a big event, ALPA national tends to offer us a great deal of assistance with funding and expertise. I've never got the impression that they short-handed us due to our small size, on the contrary, they've always brought their A game, and it would appear that our issues are every bit as important to them as those of the larger carriers. And yes, they have consistently refunded dues when there was a surplus in recent years.

If I understand correctly, ALPA is even looking into legally protecting the G4 retention bonuses should that become an issue, which says a lot.

Lets call it how it really is here. He has already posted a lot of our survey results to kill the lies that he isn’t following majority the pilots. The new pres already publicly said they plan to deviate away from the survey results and go with a hybrid of survey and “addressing the realities of the operation.” Current book CBI was already offered but the company wants concessions. What the majority of the pilots want based on surveys and the weak scheduling that actually gets voted in are not the same thing. Which is just another way the retention bonus has screwed us all. There will be hundreds of grab n go yes votes.

I support Allegiant Pilots being paid their earned retention pay.

I'm not the only one who thinks this way over here.

those surveys do not reflect reality whatsoever. We’ve all answered them and they are the Bernie Sanders version of surveys: would you like free health care, no crime, job creation, and not increase your taxes? No way all the respondents say yes.

Chairman Killen is completely clueless because he thinks he’s the smartest guy in the room at all times. He was SHOCKED that we weren’t released or given a status conference. He was naive enough to believe that he just had to give his PowerPoint of why management is bad and poof… we get released.

Even after the NMB gave the union an ultimatum after the election Chairman Killen wouldn’t pull his out of the sand. He still thinks the smartest guy wins in negotiations. He has no idea it’s the leverage that matters.

and don’t get me started on his ideas for running an airline. He seriously told management to just increase ticket prices and start flying more to Vegas on Tuesdays and to Florida in September. Guy is the walking definition of that pilot that knows everything and has no clue that he doesn’t know what he doesn’t know.

apparently he had this PowerPoint he made for the NMB that was gonna get us released. He wanted to show the NMB how Allegiant wasn’t a ULCC but was actually more like delta and Alaska than spirit or frontier. And then he was shocked when our attorneys told him that it wasn’t a good idea. Let’s just say union reps going back years are frustrated as can be with him.

So you’re saying you can’t trust the pilots to vote on anything themselves because they don’t know what’s best for their situation. Instead, we have the elite all knowing chairman Killen to decide for us.

Makes total sense.

If all you say about JK is true then why would the EXCO keep him at all. So far the EXCO has less than impressed. I have not seen a single thing they have done so far that has changed anything. If anything the communications seems actually worse than before. If you are not on one of the Rumor mill social media groups you basically are getting no info. Also on pilots voting yes everyone gets to vote on what they think is best, but at this point a vote no on anything, if they even get anything done, would be a vote to not get anything prior to an joint contract talks. At this point, if we get to, we are voting on a bridge deal to get us to the other side of the merger.

I’d be curious what “ultimatum” the NMB supposedly gave the NC…

It’s not too hard to use your imagination. I’d say it’s a safe bet to assume it was something along the lines of “no more games unless you want to be iced.”

Two years of bullsh*t led by JA and the Destin crew.

It is amazing that the company gets away with about 2 times the bullsh@t and that seems OK to the pilots. The company could have gotten it done if they truly wanted to. Same as right now they could get this done if they want to. So far again nothing seems to be getting done. Easy to just ride it out 3 days here 3 days there oh shoot the deal for Sunny closed guess we will just switch to the joint contract now to bad.

Yep, there is no deal getting done. Not sure where in the world this optimism from some people is coming from that we are close to a new contract? There is less than zero leverage to be had. Attrition is non-existent, they’re overstaffed, and when 737’s start to show up again they’ll just park an Airbus to match. They don’t care if people leave. In fact, they’d love to see attrition start to pick up again.

If 100-200 pilots left they could save a chunk in bonus payouts. Not that it’s much in the grand scheme but if you’re pinching penny's in a merger it is not nothing.