The beatings will continue until morale improves.

No but other IBT news. Previous NC Chair JA, NC “chief of staff” JR, and NC snack guy BK all have class dates at AA.

This pilot group needs to think long and hard about suing those 3 and the IBT for a DFR violation. What they did is markedly worse than scabbing.

Yes, IBT has made a mess of this process and those guys did not help. However the company is a big player. They the company still refuse to be reasonably on PBS. This has been a ten year deal fight and it seems on the last neg they are still only offering the same crappy unstacking offer. They would not even agree to a union offer that was a concession to what Sunny has. Just maybe those in the know that are leaving are leaving because they know how bad the companies offers are. Based on how any people I have run into in the last few weeks that have CJO's at other airlines it may not matter what the company is offering.

Fingers crossed….Some of us Cadets have been patiently waiting to join the fracas. Hoping things get better soon enough, so joining becomes a option.

The attrition is about to skyrocket on our side of the equation too. I think management over there is severely overestimating the size of the company they just bought. Office staff too. Nobody here wants to wait to find out is this place really has what it takes to be a competitive airline. Not in this hiring environment.

If your under the age of 30 you really should go to a Regional and flow to the majors. The risks here of getting stuck with a training failure or many other things, is not worth it. I have seen several new hire FO's jump all over the system to scratch up as many hours as possible to try and get out of here. Some of those leaving are those hired 3 years ago or so that got hired due to attrition and they have seen zero movement since we have not grown in years. They get one reserve or even if they got lucky and got junion lines since. They still have not moved up further and have future to do that unless the want to go to FLL. I would not even recommend anyone just getting started to roll the dice and try this place. You would make more and get treated better at a regional at this point. Even a pay raise will not change this place, especially without enforceable work rules.

I am not surprised but that, especially those that are FO's and want to stay in MSP. Hard to guess how that will turn out.

Cadet or not, unless you live in FLL you aint going to be living in base or doing day trips.

As things stand currently: If no contract is signed by single operator AND Toonsters still in place; then most likely Sunny will operate under current G4 (pay cuts). This according to G4 union. Company is asking for a PBS system with 70% unstacking and unlimited unstacking on peak times. So it's not even PBS system at that point but I guess that's just splitting hairs. Day trips might go away, VBD will change drastically mostly to help Amazon flying. So what would be the point of going to G4? A regional airline would give you better QOL pay benefits and career path.

[QUOTE=CptGSXR;4005941]Cadet or not, unless you live in FLL you aint going to be living in base or doing day trips.Do some of you honestly not understand that even Delta can unstack up to 100% when operationally necessary? What exactly do you expect an airline to do— freeze the schedule to preserve a slogan? If there’s operational necessity, you negotiate appropriate pay protections and move forward. That’s how grown-up labor relations work.



The outrage over unstacking isn’t strategy — it’s theater.



And the commentary about Sun Country “snapping down” to the G4 CBA is a glaring example of how poorly the RLA, merger law, and bargaining leverage are understood. Either that, or it’s a deliberate distortion. Neither option reflects competence.



What’s genuinely baffling is the belief that the IBT has any realistic path to remaining on property. The trajectory here is not ambiguous.



And let’s address the obvious: airline pilots deserve representation by an airline union. This is a highly specialized, technical industry governed by a unique labor framework. Pretending that a general labor organization is better suited to navigate airline mergers, scope, PBS, and RLA strategy is not serious.



Hopefully our EXCO recognizes what should now be self-evident — the path forward is ALPA, not the IBT.

There is zero chance of IBT winning the election.

Piper you are truly ignorant - I mean that literally. Do you know that Sunny has 100% unstacking?

Every ALPA has 100% unstacking if operationally necessary because ALPA does all the schedules!

I didn’t realize that until I asked very specific questions to some a friend of a friend at Sunny some former spirit pilots. Delta and Alaska same thing: ALPA does all the monthly bids and then turn them over to management.

but of course, ibt being a trucker union has no clue how to do pbs or monthly bids. Again 100% unstacking

The LOA I saw for Sunny only allowed up to 50% unstacking during specified months and up to 30% the rest. Unstacking triggered if uncovered trips exceeded 5% for that day. That maybe wrong but that's what i read. Do you really believe the company has or is offering anything on PBS close to industry. My guess is not, based on their track record for doing everything they can to avoid work rules of any type. If they company wants a deal why not just take the language of what Sunny has and be done with it?

THIS!! Please everyone read this comment. This is accurate. Don’t believe it? Call your friends and ask them to reach out to their scheduling committees.


This is because you have been mislead for 5 years on PBS systems. 50% and 30% are the start points, it can and will absolutely unstack above that point to ensure operational integrity. Every. Single. PBS Carrier.

In each scenario, there is a pay component tied to it. This is the solution. We are where we are today because JR, JA, BK, JC, JK and co. had absolutely no idea what they were doing. What they did to this group is f*cking criminal and now they’re all running for the hills. The reach of the DOJ is wide boys, better bid wide body over there at AA.

I guess I will go back and look at other contracts but I had never seen anything said "under this scenario the unstacking can exceed these values" Either way still does not mean the company has at any time presented an offer that is at or close to anyone in the industry. This company refuses to accept something simple like 5 hour min day. The last mailer the company sent out was a big fat turd, even if you slap good pay and or good Retirement on those they were still big turds.

Ask anyone from sunny for the loa. For sunny it’s all about open time. ALPA has to keep open time to 2%. If they can’t get open time to 2% with 50/50 unstacking then ALPA has to unstack until they get open time down to 2%. There is no limit. ALPA has to unstack until (could be up to 100%) if that’s what the scheduling needs are to get open time to 2%.

I’m not saying management is “in our side” or anything like that. Management is what it is. If they can take advantage of a crappy union then they will. IBT sucks, like legitimately they are terrible at representing professional aviators. I am not surprised one bit that management has been taking advantage of the IBT for more than a decade. That’s why I will always blame IBT because I pay their bills. I can be ****ed at management all I want, but they pay my bills. It ****es me off to no end that we have given the IBT a pass for over a decade. Do you really think we’d be in this mess if we had voted in ALPA 12 years ago?

IBT has screwed us. The millions we have lost are sunk costs at this point. We need to get what we can asap and then rip off the IBT bandaid once and for all and vote it ALPA. Then, and only then, will we have the strength in numbers, the unity, and the professional representation to achieve what we have long deserved.

for those that want to “wait it out” and hope for some magic fairy to save us. The magic fairy of attrition or an NMB release, y’all are just screwing us even more. JR, Robles, Josh Allen, and now Chairman Killen have been played for suckers by management. Those jokesters think management is scared of them and the IBT. Seriously, Robles, JR, Josh and Killen all thought that they’d be able to “win the negotiation” against management. They were stupid enough to think that they ever had a chance at beating management. How stupid can they be? The RLA will never let a union beat management. That’s the whole point. These morons bought into the Toonsters propaganda that they’d “crush” management like a hammer.

that is literally impossible with the RLA (unless O’Brien becomes president of the USA;)

The way to “beat” management is death by a thousand cuts - aka pattern bargaining. ALPA put the pattern bargaining plan in motion over 20 years ago and the entire industry (except for us) is benefiting from it (looking at you SWAPA, APA and Skywest pilots). It is incredible to me that ibt really believes the best strategy is to complain and blame management. That is all they’ve for over a decade. Again, ask yourself, would we be better off today had we voted in ALPA back in 2012?

Many reasons:

1. NC has not offered what sunny has. ALPA does all the monthly bids/schedules. IBT has told the NC that the IBT will never be able to do the monthly schedules because that is only a management function - not a union’s job. (I asked what about ALPA, and was told that the legacies MEC are all basically management pilots anyway so they can do the scheduling. Doesn’t make sense to me. In reality I think IBT knows they lack the experience, knowledge and infrastructure to do the scheduling).

2. Jude and sunny management have 100% unstacking if ALPA cannot keep open time to 2% or less. Management has been saying 70% unstacking if open time is more than 5% (NC confirmed this just a couple months ago). How is 100% and 2% open time better for us than 70% and 5% open time. Union has been telling since Robles that management wants more unlimited unstacking and zero open time so you tell me which is better for us.

3. Sunny has one big base and we have lots of little bases. (I know sunny has CVG but that came after the pbs rules I think). I have been told and seen messages by union officials, e board members and the NC that small bases and day trips really do make pbs different here than at other airlines. Navblue reps have been telling the union that for years but Robles and KS just told everyone that Navblue was being laid off by management. The reality of “the Allegiant business model” really does it make it harder to copy and paste industry pbs rules into the tiny bases and day trips. Again that is what I’ve heard and seen from union reps, e board members and the NC.

4. I am not convinced management actually wants a deal. I’ve been saying 2026-2027 since 2021. Now, management has the perfect excuse to delay this til JCBA. The IBT have been completely manipulated by management.

those are some reasons off the top of my head to answer your question piper.

now I’m gonna go back to celebrating the gold medal win for our hockey team.

Now let me just say this clearly.

Sun Country’s PBS absolutely allows for up to 100% unstacking. That is a fact. Under certain circumstances, every ALPA carrier provides for up to 100% unstacking as well. That is not speculation. That is how these systems are structured across the industry.

What I can also tell you is this. The conversations with the new executive board demonstrate something very important. They understand PBS. They understand the mechanics. They understand the levers. And they understand how those levers affect pilots lives.

And I think it is only fair, and frankly reasonable, to allow this board the opportunity to do the work. For the first time since we have been under the IBT, we have leadership that is very intelligent, capable, and prepared.

Now let us give them the space to do what we elected them to do.

Sunny guy here-

Clarifying a couple items.

Our monthly PBS production runs are handled by active line pilots who are dropped from their trips to go into the office and perform these runs.

The solutions are still subject to management constraints, but our guys have a good enough working relationship to collaborate to a solution.

This structure of active line pilots (ALPA PBS committee) doing the PBS runs exists at all the other LCC carriers the last time I checked.

I generally agree with what you are saying but it's worth noting a couple things (some of this directed to Sunny guys). The math doesnt work for the union, the company, or the PBS vendor (NavBlue). G4 has bases with only 1 plane seasonally, and the company just throws darts at a board for staffing models......blindfolded. How would anyone even be able to make a decent schedule out of that mess? Some interns practicing their AI coding on the scheduling software? It would be like watching a monkey trying to hump a football.

It's true that at a REAL airline, the union makes the schedules then gives them to the company under agreed upon guidelines, many have already been stated previously. G4 CURRENTLY uses a spreadsheet that is just one step above email line bidding that Great Lakes used to do. It is 100% company controlled and manipulated. Do you think the company would give up control to allow the union to make schedules? Serious question, the NC will have to explain this.

So the devil is really in the details, not "whatever is the lowest % unstacking". So here is my issue, the person most adamant about not agreeing to anything on scheduling is now in charge of negotiating. So what's changed? There really is no way to fix this. Unless you are going to close every seasonal or small base and lose day trips. PBS doesnt work on the G4 model....my point is, saying APLA does this and Sunny does that is comparing apples to oranges.

Pilots don't have to be taken off the line to do this, at Republic those in the union that did all that had laptops and did it while out on trips. This was an IBT operation. G4 controls 100% of the schedule and tells the union to pound sand if they dont like it. And every Judge has agreed with them, the TOONSTERS have lost every single time on this. Not arguing with you, just pointing out the vast difference between the two operations. Also, lack of clarity on staffing and 1 plane bases make enforceable rules a nightmare for both sides.

The pilots are pulled from the trips to do this because of the timeline, and additionally it is work that the company would need to hire people to do.

The company pays for these trip drops, which is also fairly industry standard. Just as they pay for safety and FOQA committee work. The company gains certain efficiencies and convenience from PBS, so they should cover the cost of the labor to handle these tasks.

At our operation, this work could not be realistically accomplished on a layover. I believe you that it worked at Republic, but that was probably different software, and the needs of the solution may not have been as robust. It sometimes takes a lot of work to generate a solution, requiring back-and forth discussion with the company crew planners.

Sounds highly illegal. Performing company work while technically on rest?

I’d hope to have an ALPA expert in the office working on the schedule instead of some poor schmuck hitting the solve button once and then try to get rest for their 0400 van time.

Our FAA office feels that any such work counts as company duty and is subject to 117. Other feds may see it differently.

Welcome to the life of a Toonster. Scummy union is scummy. Flew with a couple guys that did this, they just kept hitting solve till they liked what they got. And trust me, it wasn't during rest.......

I am well over 30, this is 3rd career for me

Still may not be worth it. Many well over 30 pilots looking to leave.

to your point…they are already there doing the thing. I, on the other hand, am not, so I am at a point where I will take what I can get.

THIS RIGHT HERE has been the difference between you guys and us. That under ALL prior leadership the working relationship has been fairly toxic... Was management collaborative at all times? or fair? NO. But after 4 airlines management is pretty much the same everywhere, what makes the difference is having a Union leadership that's not just looking to fan the flames. Unfortunately the IBTs motto appears to be "Bring them to their knees", and nothing gets done. Hell, the last election the current Eboard basically campaigned on taking a different approach to negotiations and collaborating. The opposing slate, and its supporters were more "Fight!", "burn it to the ground".

Hell, even recently the current NC decided to move towards the company's request on PBS, yet, they are currently negotiating and discussing guardrails, pay, and other things that will alleviate the pilot group when/if the company decides to unstack up to 70%. Opposers of the current Eboard or people that for too long believed all the IBT BS propaganda were already screaming "CONCESSIONS! CONCESSIONS! CONCESSIONS".

As someone before you just said, we have to give this Eboard the benefit of the doubt at this time. We need to lock something down and soon, and personally I do NOT believe it will be concessionary or "The company mailer".

Dont mind Brian, as someone once said to me, he’s a weather vane…he was a Robles fan boy until he wasn’t, then a JR fan boy until he wasn’t, an IBT and GU fan boy until he wasn’t. Now he’s an RJ and current NC fan boy…

The collaborative relationship did not occur overnight, it took a lot of time and patience on both sides to come to mutual understanding and that we were working toward the same goals. Sometimes there is serious disagreement, but the engagement remains professional.

Never been a "fan boy", but backed up those who were in positions of leadership and negotiations. That's what we're supposed to do no? Not blindly support, but support until you have no reason to support because of possible fraud, waste, mismanagement, incompetence, or shear negligence. You failed to mention that each name engaged in one or many of the things I mentioned. So like many, I supported until given clear reasons not to. You on the other hand have proven more than once that you are a permanent idiot.

That's good, and as of right now that's what appears to be in the making at Allegiant.

Gotta love these IBT worshippers. They think its ridiculous, hypocritical, etc. to change your mind on leadership after you've seen them screw the pilot group.

I was never a Robles guy, I had heard too many ego maniac stories from other EXCO members. I was all in with JR. I really thought JR had the best opportunity to unify this pilot group. But he let Unterseher manipulate him and just started doing Unterseher's bidding.

Let's see how RJ and this current regime does. I am giving RJ the benefit of the doubt until I have reason to doubt him.

Agree 100%. I supported the prior NC members, and gave GU the benefit of the doubt initially. It all evaporated within 6 months due to everything we endured under that group. I'm pretty sure I know who "Hightime" is too, pretty obvious by his blanket, simple minded, idiotic statements. What everyone should be outraged over is not that some NC members have CJOs with American, is that it's evident they had their applications out while negotiating "on behalf" of the pilot group, and asking for continued support to their imbecil like so called strategy.

You're also right, RJ and this newly elected Eboard deserve the benefit of the doubt. I have close friends in that group that I respect and know they are not more of the same, and should bring good changes. Nonetheless, friends or not, they know where I stand on representation of this pilot group. The pilots come FIRST, and I will not support or back any personal agendas like in the past. Friend or no friend; I trust many of them. But it's not about me, it's about them earning the trust and confidence from the whole/majority of the pilot group.

Enough has been enough, can't have unity without a contract, can't have a contract without good, intelligent, pragmatic and transparent leadership.

I’ve never been pro IBT. Even when we voted them in, it was only because ALPA wouldn’t take us. We knew we needed a union on the property, and the IBT sold us a bill of goods. We’ve been trying to get away from them ever since.
Some of you younger guys don’t remember any of that. You don’t remember that we knew exactly who GU was back at 1224. Instead, there’s a lot of blind optimism…hoping the next person will be some kind of messiah who ushers in a new era. That mindset is why we end up with “fanboys” like Brian, who think they’re doing something important, posting memes and fluffing whoever happens to be in power.
But the reality is this: it’s not ARs, JRs, or RJs that will get us out of this situation. There’s really only one path forward, and it’s ALPA.
We can hope the current Executive Board is smart enough to get something signed before SLI. But whatever that is, it’s almost certain to fall short of what we deserve and we already know it will involve concessions. RJ campaigned on that.

For our Sunny brothers, you should also understand this: during the last town hall, our Executive Board told our pilot group that if IBT is voted in…or if the NMB determines IBT is the representative body (which is effectively what they’re hoping for, no vote at all) then the SY contract would disappear, and you would simply fall under our CBA.

That speaks volumes about the quality of both our Executive Board and the IBT.

is that what happened with mesa and republic then? yikes.

Rumor around the ECTC is that you got called on the carpet and folded like a lawn chair and turned over your chat and fb group to save your a$$. I guess that could be considered backing up leadership.

All I know about that is the Mesa MEC is rumored to have conceded. I don’t know what that looked like or how it was presented to the NMB so no vote occurred but what I do know is IBT is hoping to frame that as the precedent for G4/SY.

If forced to a vote of both groups, ALPA will be the surviving entity.

Sunny brother here, that shiit won't fly.