I’ll wait to hear from the original poster. I’d caution you to not believe everything people say on here, especially when they don’t give sources.

We will get a deal when either the company wants to or gets forced to via other means. Since the Local has stopped applying pressure, it seems we will be waiting for mgmt’s timeline.

G4 management is already making big boasts about how their multiple bases will create massive efficiencies in the SY charter and cargo operations. They claim that these efficiencies will be used to fuel growth. Its a lie. It will create a large glut of unneeded pilots. This overstaffed position will be used as leverage against us in the JCBA. It is going to be a long fight.

Saw some messages about an ultimatum. Asked the union and they didn’t deny it. They said management is lying, you can’t trust them, etc.

them I said it wasn’t from management. Then the pivot to “it wasn’t an ‘ultimatum’ it was more of a soft deadline.”

Call it an ultimatum or a soft deadline either way it doesn’t sound good if you’re an Allegiant pilot.

If you think that a strike will ever occur, I’ve got some ocean front property in Kansas I’d like to sell you.

Our local was never applying pressure. Our NC was never negotiating in good faith. It’s all a farce.

-----THIS-----

We had very little chance before the acquisition announcement, it's legit 0% now. The last NC left this pilot group in an absolute worse position that AR ever did. Never thought that was possible. JA was beyond incompetent! For him to be saying recently that the company's costing was still wrong, and that we were still is an impasse, shows the immense level of idiocy.

You do not think if the union and the pilots of G4 dug their heals in and made it very will known to the company that we will be a loud public opponent against the purchase of Sunny on the back of the pilots with out a contract that values us in the same way as the industry values their pilots. Even the Sunny pilot should be admite they should get something like Alaska did to bridge them to a joint contract.

You have to ignore Captainbfv ...his opinion changes like a fart in the wind whenever he is given new directive from Summerlin. I think the political term is chaos agent.

True........

So you’re saying if the NC would just whine more then Maury will pay us WN/AS/UA/DL/AA rates?

Why are you not in the room doing mediation for us? We are really missing out by not having piper replace chairman Killen on the NC

Easy there simple Jack.

He's not in the room, because the majority of the pilots at G4 voted to end the same idiocy that was propagated by AR, JA, GU, and the BUS. If he or Moist where in the room, it would be the definition of insanity... Doing the same idiocy, while expecting different results. I guess some of these cats completely missed the memo or can't read a room for $******+

It's amazing (mind boggling) to see some still talking about picketing, and just stomp their feet like children. The adults are back in the room, they're putting in the work, and we will know them by their works.... just like everyone else.

So morons like Moist saying that my opinion changes like a fart in the wind is laughable. I have given everyone from AR, to the current Eboard the benefit of the doubt, until they remove all doubt. This Eboard is taking a more pragmatic approach. Once again, the G4 pilots overwhelmingly voted for that. You think that's summerlin working? HAHAHA. Your c!rcle j**rk just got smaller fellas. Let the adults work children; moving on.

None of that is what I said. I was responding to the statement that the NC and us as pilots, WE ARE ONE UNION. Do not have leverage. This pilot group should be making it clear to our union leaders and those leaders should be making it very clear. Maybe they are? That this pilot group will not support a purchase of Sunny without the contract they have been promising for 5 years. We as a pilot group should not sit back quietly as the company uses once again the savings from the current pilot contract to invest in another company venture. Sure the company could elect to continue to drag this out so that they do not have to pay this pilot group tell after. We just should not be willing and silent partners in that venture if they continue to not treat us as partners.

So another question most of you all in for the company guys usually and saying that MG is no longer in charge and its solely the unions fault. Whether MG is or not does not change the facts that the company has not been motivated to actually make a deal. If they had we would have a deal already.

So far the current Exco seems content to sit quietly in the background and send out people like chapi to say it is not their fault the last guys destroyed everything. That sounds a lot like just giving in and up to the company.

This pilot group will continue to lose these battles if the majority stays silent. Yes this EXCO won the vote by a great margin, but only about half the pilot's even voted. I personally voted for them, it seemed like the best option for real change. Real change will only happen by getting the pilot group as a whole engaged in the process, not communicating and keeping pilots as a whole in the dark about what is going on is not change but a continuation of what each group before has done.


But if it is true and we have no leverage at all and this EXCO's only play is to roll over for the company. Then were is the company favored TA? Lets get it over with if this is truly all we have.

You keep saying the majority of the pilots…I don’t think even 50% participated in the vote. And don’t think that people have forgotten about you’re role in getting us into this mess in the first place. What damage did the trusteeship do to our negotiations. Ever look in the mirror when you think about that?

He’s not self-aware of the damage he has caused to this pilot group but ignorance is bliss.

Are the Robles worshippers back?!?

so know it’s chapi’s fault that AR was using dues to build his $100k home office? Or is it Chapi’s fault that Unterseher has held onto this trusteeship for more than two years?

Chapi should have just let our corrupt leaders keep doing there thing?

you guys are unreal. It’s possible for management to suck and the union to suck. The difference is we pay the union to exist so they should be held to way higher standard than management.

Never understood why people will expect management to be altruistic and the union to be greedy when it should absolutely be the other way around.

Huh? Other way around? Normally agree with a lot of what you say but.....is it altruistic to purposefully torpedo negotiations for years? Let's review, last contract was 10 years ago. Rumor is, Union was told to come back to the table with something realistic or be iced again. If not, no deal before a JCBA, meaning 5 more years till a contract. So that's 15 years on ONE contract with no backpay and very unlikely to get Retention Bonus "IF" it goes that far.....MG played the Toonsters like a fiddle. Failing to see the altruism there

maybe I wasn’t clear. Unions should be held to way way a higher standard than management. Why does anyone act surprised when management negotiates for their benefit, uses the leverage they have, etc. that’s all I was trying to get at.

You are correct management has played the IBT like a fiddle. That’s what makes me laugh when people said management was using the Alpa drive. Management would HATE if we moved to Alpa. A professional union that cannot be jerked around. MG loves the IBT, he can walk all over them.

And yes, I was also told that the Union was given a deadline to start getting realistic or else the NMB was gonna ignore us til JCBA. That is why Josh, Jay, and the other Js that are still trying to sell us on their brilliant strategy of legacy contract and anything else will get us released.

You have been hitting the nail on the head for quite some time my friend. Moist, and Bitcoin who I have a good feeling who they are, are trying to not only make me a scape goat, but give a pass to all the mediocre and amateur representation. I too remember reading all the rhetoric online about the company not only wanting ALPA, but running the drive. The level of delusion clowns such as the one's I mentioned have, and the insane echo chambers conversations these clowns have among themselves in other chats, that I get to see my self, are not only hilarious, but disconnected of reality.

So according to Hightime80, and Bitcoin, I'm responsible (alone) for putting us into trusteeship. Idiots like this, that hype themselves up with these mediocre conspiracies have completely abandoned all reason, and reality on the ground. Which is why we are where we are. Because they are no different than all those that represented us for years. Ego maniacs that actually believed they had a case for an impasse, or that they actually had MG bent over a barrel. And when we actually had some actual leverage (2023-2024) they squandered it, because they got greedy for their own glory.

All ignored the fact that **********i+ happens, and leverage can evaporate in an instant. So instead of being honest and try to salvage what they could, they decided to create scapegoats, and not face the music of their own doing. This is why ALPA at some point will most likely represent. Because even though this current EXCO is working hard like no other leadership at this airline to clean things up, deliver a good contract, and properly represent; the damage done by priors is unforgivable. Yet you have idiots that still think that expecting, or demanding more of the same prior garbage is the only way we can lock something down that's worthy.

Amateurs! There are legit some that say, "even if we get everything we ever wanted, I'm voting NO on principal". Seriously? The level of idiocy and ideology is beyond belief. The election was clear, yet, 'the side that lost says'... "If it's this, or that, or less than what I THINK, and what I was fed for years, then is concessionary".

The majority of pilots debating with these buffoons are like BEES TRYING TO CONVINCE FLIES THAT EATING HONEY IS BETTER THAN EATING SH*******.

Mind Boggling
 

It's mind boggling that you equate picketing to a child-like temper tantrum. Our last picket was effective. We were all over the local media in every base. Numerous people I hadn't talked to in months and years reached out to me to ask about the "strike", including legacy pilots. We had momentum. We have an opportunity right now, that could be lost soon if we don't capitalize on it. We shouldn't squander the ability to pressure the company during a time where we have leverage we haven't had in years. Those calling for peace are hoping for a quick end to negotiations to get their RBs and hourly pay increases, while the rest of us are concerned about losing an opportunity to get industry standard. Don't expect the JCBA to improve upon this new contract.

please explain this to me??? I would love to hear about how we have more leverage today than we did in 2023 during the greatest hiring spree in our careers? Or the leverage we had when there were when two democrats (one of them was an IBT attorney) on the NMB who could release us?

I didn’t say we have more leverage now than we did in ‘23 but we have more leverage now than we have since then. You could argue that we have more leverage now though because the company seemed fine with hiring CFIs and visas to replace leaving pilots. And yeah, I think we have more leverage now despite the fact we probably aren’t getting released anytime soon. They need government and shareholder approval to get this deal done. They want to show DOJ/DOT and financers that there are no labor troubles. If we’re quiet then all will assume that labor negotiations are going smooth. If we’re loud they’ll be more inclined to finish the deal. That’s called leverage.

got it. So if labor whines a lot the DOJ is gonna block the deal?

even tho analysts say this is the easiest merger case ever in the airline industry because the crossover is ONE route

nevermind that this admin’s DOJ is way too busy with other stuff and hates unions

and Wall Street would prefer we don’t get a raise so the idea that the banks are gonna pressure management to increase pilots costs by at least 50-60% is laughable.

You do not honestly believe that we have more leverage now than we did a year ago under Trump or in 2024 under Biden??

For starters I never stated that the last picketing was children stomping their feet. But I do want to point out that although the turn out was good, and media coverage was decent; HOW, explain to me how it pressured the company in any sort of way?

Secondly, the company like others had to take CFIs, something the legacies didn't have to do. No visa pilots have been hired for some time; the company discontinued that. You thinking that more picketing, or more "being loud" will get a deal done faster. The dynamic has already changed. The company has said they want to meet more and get a deal done, the E-board has agreed to do so. The EXCO is taking a pragmatic approach, using resource like unlike before, to bring a deal sooner rather than later.

Like Nate and another individual have mentioned, the mediator has already given the new team a clear "ultimatum". Bring a TA soon, or risk getting iced out. What that tells me, is that this current mediator was less than impressed by how the last NC decided to negotiate, act, and is not interested in any more "impasse", proffer games. You're right, the company doesn't need this labor issue to still be an issue when they seek approval from the DOJ/DOT. But if you actually think that we now have more leverage before to get everything under the sun, then you're way off, and it's why the new eboard was voted in. Because the majority wants to vote YES or NO on SOMETHING, and SOON.

You wanna get more instead of less? Then learn from the Flight Attendants... They voted down their first TA, went back to the table, and were able to get much more. Company had to do it. At the end of the day this E-board got a clear message from the pilots, get something done and let us the members decide. Period.

Rumor on the street that Pria request have spiked considerably. 3000 hour TT pilots getting interview calls from 2 to 3 different airlines. How many more will they see if pilots know it will be 3 to 5 years for a new contract. Almost every pilot on the seniority list could replace their income at the big 4 in that time. 7000 new hires needed this year how many of our young pilots going to stick around to see if the company will value them in 2 to 4 years from now. I know a few that took the wait and see approach last time and got stuck here when it slowed. They have stuff out to several places few have CJO's already. Heard of several pilots having interviews coming up at SWA. Attrition maybe slower now but its just starting to pick up, could be crazy by summer.

Aw hell nah

yep this is exactly my thinking as well, if negotiations dont start moving. in 3 years i could be in the same state making more. if overnights are a possibility here then its a no brainer. after watching lax and austin closures, this company doesnt care about us. still waiting to see how they fill those FLL FO vacancies. 3000 TT is the sweet spot i've heard.

Hark! Hark! Captainbfv proclaims he is trustworthy, therefore, it must be true.

Have you ever considered that maybe your actions and opinions aren't taken as gospel by everyone as you think they are?

Your back channeling got us into trusteeship, then you decided you didn't like that so you back channeled the ALPA drive, then you quit the union but continue to be one of the most outspoken in the pilot group. I imagine it won't be long before you're back channeling against the new exco. Curious that someone who "doesn't care" is constantly on a soap box. I think we all look forward to your insane reasons why we shouldn't elect SC ALPA to represent us when the time comes.

The common theme through all of this? You've NEVER had any skin in the game, never attached your name to anything, it's always the same "I heard that.., people are saying.., rumor is.." rhetoric. Seems like such a likable oracle should be in an elected position but you're the exact opposite.

Let's just take the latest example of #ChapiFacts: The NC has been given an "ultimatum". For this to be true it would mean that someone, either with the union or the company, has violated their NDA. Either party would take this very seriously, especially if it hurt their position. The other possibility is that it's completely made up. Considering the trustworthiness of the source this is plausible.

Allegiant is a rudderless ship, adrift with no plan of action for the next 5 years other than see how she goes. Not far off in the sea is another rudderless ship named the IBT2118. She is also adrift with no plan other than "this time it'll be different!". Myself along with anyone who values what they have put into their career should be preparing the life boats, to trust the people that are at the helms of either of these doomed vessels is true insanity.

You must be a joy to fly with. Hope you get the call soon. Bye Felicia!

I’m guessing that there may be a few Sun Country pilots who, after reading some of this thread, don’t understand why Allegiant pilots are in their current position.

…but not many.

Call it an ultimatum or a soft deadline - union can call it whatever they want but no one has denied that this rumor is indeed true.

color me shocked that someone would violate an NDA during negotiations - SHOCKED I’m telling you. Absolutely shocked someone would violate an NDA.

you do know most of those NDAs are about financials right? They have nothing to do with not talking about what the NMB putting the parties on ice. But again, you’ll believe what you want to believe…

tome to stick your head back in the sand

Ha. Yes. It seems lots of disfunction in the union leadership over the years. On the what ALPA calls the MEC and Negotiating committee. From an outsider getting to see what is going on it’s scary and messed up. One thing that strikes me, it seems not much unity with 23 bases of all sizes scattered around the country with some bases seeming to have very seasonal flying. I don’t want anything to do with teamsters. Sounds like a hot mess. Do you guys have local councils or is it one group that oversees all bases and pilots?

Looking at the payscales on APC (let me know if they're wrong), any G4 line pilot should be able to replace their income somewhere around 1-2 years in at any Big Four or AS/HA. Probably B6 too, but I don't think they're hiring.

If you're a low time FO with no TPIC, might be hard to get a call in the current climate, what with all the RJ drivers and NK CA's they have to pick from. But if you have 121 PIC, you have options.

At the risk of being a broken record here I will say this again, NOBODY has left G4. Nobody. None. The attrition for the last year has been 5 per month, consistently. You dont even need to be a pilot on the seniority list to see this, it's published online. It's hard to leave because those that were hired went there for the Day Trips. Now, if the new contract eliminates those trips then yes people will leave. Till then, this is a waste of time to even go over. The pickets did nothing, they were all done on a day where there were ZERO flights and some of their tiny bases didn't even have the airport open. The Toonsters torpedoed negotiations (reasons have been discussed at nauseum). And to those at Sun Country I'd like to pass on some insider info. If ALL of your pilots can stand behind ALPA then when the merger happens you will stay ALPA. The only reason the Toonsters are still at G4 is because GU and national ran a campaign telling pilots they wouldn't get their retention bonus if they were voted out. Can't blame pilots for not wanting to lose $200k

As I've said before (and I assume you know) that is not how the RLA works, contractual agreements are between the pilots and the company, the union is a broker. You can change unions and it all remains in force.

Possible exception if the bonus was explicitly in writing as being tied to IBT representation but even then I have my doubts. RLA and labor law typically doesn't allow a company to manipulate/interfere with representation choice to that degree.

allegedly there were 50% of the cards in for the alpa drive last summer, so 50% + 100% of sun country = alpa. its a no brainer and im sure even more now so with all the info alpa has put out about the merger vs our lack of info from teamsters.

this is the reality. We are all here for one reason only: day trips.

why else would anybody come to Allegiant?

Not sure if there are many but I have flown with a FO under 3500 TT with no PIC and has 2 interviews coming up. Maybe that is the exception but its slowly seeming more and more of the under 4 year FO's are getting closer to competitive. I do not think the number of those that have left reflects the number of people with applications out. If you go back to beginning of 2021 we have 617 pilots hired since then of current 1334 on property. If even half left it would start to hurt G4

Yes the payrates for G4 are correct, so yes a 10 year FO or less can make at or more money day one at SWA

Out of the 700 pilots, I'd be truly surprised if you could find 5 to vote for IBT.

ALPA is definitely the superior union (pilots). Until the company (Allegiant) makes it clear that the current retention bonus will be honored regardless of union, IBT / ALPA, most Allegiant pilots will reluctantly stick with Teamsters. The wording in the stupid retention bonus agreement specifically states IBT (not pilots or elected representation).

If the payout is guaranteed with ALPA we’re all set…ALPA it is.

Yeah, I can not imagine any way that IBT gets more votes even at G4