Piper you are truly ignorant - I mean that literally. Do you know that Sunny has 100% unstacking?

Every ALPA has 100% unstacking if operationally necessary because ALPA does all the schedules!

I didn’t realize that until I asked very specific questions to some a friend of a friend at Sunny some former spirit pilots. Delta and Alaska same thing: ALPA does all the monthly bids and then turn them over to management.

but of course, ibt being a trucker union has no clue how to do pbs or monthly bids. Again 100% unstacking

 

The LOA I saw for Sunny only allowed up to 50% unstacking during specified months and up to 30% the rest. Unstacking triggered if uncovered trips exceeded 5% for that day. That maybe wrong but that's what i read. Do you really believe the company has or is offering anything on PBS close to industry. My guess is not, based on their track record for doing everything they can to avoid work rules of any type. If they company wants a deal why not just take the language of what Sunny has and be done with it?

 

THIS!! Please everyone read this comment. This is accurate. Don’t believe it? Call your friends and ask them to reach out to their scheduling committees.


This is because you have been mislead for 5 years on PBS systems. 50% and 30% are the start points, it can and will absolutely unstack above that point to ensure operational integrity. Every. Single. PBS Carrier.

In each scenario, there is a pay component tied to it. This is the solution. We are where we are today because JR, JA, BK, JC, JK and co. had absolutely no idea what they were doing. What they did to this group is f*cking criminal and now they’re all running for the hills. The reach of the DOJ is wide boys, better bid wide body over there at AA.

 

I guess I will go back and look at other contracts but I had never seen anything said "under this scenario the unstacking can exceed these values" Either way still does not mean the company has at any time presented an offer that is at or close to anyone in the industry. This company refuses to accept something simple like 5 hour min day. The last mailer the company sent out was a big fat turd, even if you slap good pay and or good Retirement on those they were still big turds.

 

Ask anyone from sunny for the loa. For sunny it’s all about open time. ALPA has to keep open time to 2%. If they can’t get open time to 2% with 50/50 unstacking then ALPA has to unstack until they get open time down to 2%. There is no limit. ALPA has to unstack until (could be up to 100%) if that’s what the scheduling needs are to get open time to 2%.

I’m not saying management is “in our side” or anything like that. Management is what it is. If they can take advantage of a crappy union then they will. IBT sucks, like legitimately they are terrible at representing professional aviators. I am not surprised one bit that management has been taking advantage of the IBT for more than a decade. That’s why I will always blame IBT because I pay their bills. I can be ****ed at management all I want, but they pay my bills. It ****es me off to no end that we have given the IBT a pass for over a decade. Do you really think we’d be in this mess if we had voted in ALPA 12 years ago?

IBT has screwed us. The millions we have lost are sunk costs at this point. We need to get what we can asap and then rip off the IBT bandaid once and for all and vote it ALPA. Then, and only then, will we have the strength in numbers, the unity, and the professional representation to achieve what we have long deserved.

for those that want to “wait it out” and hope for some magic fairy to save us. The magic fairy of attrition or an NMB release, y’all are just screwing us even more. JR, Robles, Josh Allen, and now Chairman Killen have been played for suckers by management. Those jokesters think management is scared of them and the IBT. Seriously, Robles, JR, Josh and Killen all thought that they’d be able to “win the negotiation” against management. They were stupid enough to think that they ever had a chance at beating management. How stupid can they be? The RLA will never let a union beat management. That’s the whole point. These morons bought into the Toonsters propaganda that they’d “crush” management like a hammer.

that is literally impossible with the RLA (unless O’Brien becomes president of the USA

The way to “beat” management is death by a thousand cuts - aka pattern bargaining. ALPA put the pattern bargaining plan in motion over 20 years ago and the entire industry (except for us) is benefiting from it (looking at you SWAPA, APA and Skywest pilots). It is incredible to me that ibt really believes the best strategy is to complain and blame management. That is all they’ve for over a decade. Again, ask yourself, would we be better off today had we voted in ALPA back in 2012?

 

Many reasons:

1. NC has not offered what sunny has. ALPA does all the monthly bids/schedules. IBT has told the NC that the IBT will never be able to do the monthly schedules because that is only a management function - not a union’s job. (I asked what about ALPA, and was told that the legacies MEC are all basically management pilots anyway so they can do the scheduling. Doesn’t make sense to me. In reality I think IBT knows they lack the experience, knowledge and infrastructure to do the scheduling).

2. Jude and sunny management have 100% unstacking if ALPA cannot keep open time to 2% or less. Management has been saying 70% unstacking if open time is more than 5% (NC confirmed this just a couple months ago). How is 100% and 2% open time better for us than 70% and 5% open time. Union has been telling since Robles that management wants more unlimited unstacking and zero open time so you tell me which is better for us.

3. Sunny has one big base and we have lots of little bases. (I know sunny has CVG but that came after the pbs rules I think). I have been told and seen messages by union officials, e board members and the NC that small bases and day trips really do make pbs different here than at other airlines. Navblue reps have been telling the union that for years but Robles and KS just told everyone that Navblue was being laid off by management. The reality of “the Allegiant business model” really does it make it harder to copy and paste industry pbs rules into the tiny bases and day trips. Again that is what I’ve heard and seen from union reps, e board members and the NC.

4. I am not convinced management actually wants a deal. I’ve been saying 2026-2027 since 2021. Now, management has the perfect excuse to delay this til JCBA. The IBT have been completely manipulated by management.

those are some reasons off the top of my head to answer your question piper.

now I’m gonna go back to celebrating the gold medal win for our hockey team.

 

Now let me just say this clearly.

Sun Country’s PBS absolutely allows for up to 100% unstacking. That is a fact. Under certain circumstances, every ALPA carrier provides for up to 100% unstacking as well. That is not speculation. That is how these systems are structured across the industry.

What I can also tell you is this. The conversations with the new executive board demonstrate something very important. They understand PBS. They understand the mechanics. They understand the levers. And they understand how those levers affect pilots lives.

And I think it is only fair, and frankly reasonable, to allow this board the opportunity to do the work. For the first time since we have been under the IBT, we have leadership that is very intelligent, capable, and prepared.

Now let us give them the space to do what we elected them to do.

 

Sunny guy here-

Clarifying a couple items.

Our monthly PBS production runs are handled by active line pilots who are dropped from their trips to go into the office and perform these runs.

The solutions are still subject to management constraints, but our guys have a good enough working relationship to collaborate to a solution.

This structure of active line pilots (ALPA PBS committee) doing the PBS runs exists at all the other LCC carriers the last time I checked.

 

I generally agree with what you are saying but it's worth noting a couple things (some of this directed to Sunny guys). The math doesnt work for the union, the company, or the PBS vendor (NavBlue). G4 has bases with only 1 plane seasonally, and the company just throws darts at a board for staffing models......blindfolded. How would anyone even be able to make a decent schedule out of that mess? Some interns practicing their AI coding on the scheduling software? It would be like watching a monkey trying to hump a football.

It's true that at a REAL airline, the union makes the schedules then gives them to the company under agreed upon guidelines, many have already been stated previously. G4 CURRENTLY uses a spreadsheet that is just one step above email line bidding that Great Lakes used to do. It is 100% company controlled and manipulated. Do you think the company would give up control to allow the union to make schedules? Serious question, the NC will have to explain this.

So the devil is really in the details, not "whatever is the lowest % unstacking". So here is my issue, the person most adamant about not agreeing to anything on scheduling is now in charge of negotiating. So what's changed? There really is no way to fix this. Unless you are going to close every seasonal or small base and lose day trips. PBS doesnt work on the G4 model....my point is, saying APLA does this and Sunny does that is comparing apples to oranges.

 

Pilots don't have to be taken off the line to do this, at Republic those in the union that did all that had laptops and did it while out on trips. This was an IBT operation. G4 controls 100% of the schedule and tells the union to pound sand if they dont like it. And every Judge has agreed with them, the TOONSTERS have lost every single time on this. Not arguing with you, just pointing out the vast difference between the two operations. Also, lack of clarity on staffing and 1 plane bases make enforceable rules a nightmare for both sides.