New Hire FO was a 747 CA in a previous life.

Wow! Upgrade as a new hire?? in an MD-80?! Gutsy move, Mav!
This company has the worst maintenance, worst destinations, worst training (FAA closed down our training department), worst support, worst...EVERYTHING.

Allegiant is very poorly managed and staffed. It has a very consistent habit of setting up captains for failure, then firing them. I can think of 4 captains recently fired from 1 base alone! Better bring your 'A' game, Allegiant may have cut new hire FOs some slack in the past, but street/NH captains are bringing a whole new reality and will dictate a dramatically elevated standard of performance. Now that every FO is a potential NH captain, I would expect the new elevated standards to apply to all. I'm no check airman, but I would be very hesitant to sign off a potential (unknown) left-seater without a ton of scrutiny. Expect pink rates to sky-rocket. You might meet some of our former captains in the unemployment line.

Best of luck rolling the dice. I'm told it's tough finding work after Allegiant has spit you out.

I won't matter.

It should speak volumes that FOs that have waited for years to upgrade are bypassing. This isn't one or two that want to hang on to a quality of life over upgrade. It's more like 95%.

What do you suppose they know about things around here that helped them make that decision? It wasn't because they don't want to be a captain... it's because this company will give you no support and crucify you the minute you don't catch one of the mistakes THEY make.

One brand new captain recently refused to take an airplane into Roanoke because the auto spoilers were inop. How do you suppose that conversation went? If you guessed that dispatch questioned whether that captain should have ever upgraded you'd be right. Never mind that they were already an MD80 captain at a previous airline and made the right call on this.

It's a daily event to have the wrong flight attendant on your paperwork. No alternate when one is required. The wrong logbook for your airplane. Improper sign off of an MEL. Maintenance control asking which MEL they should use. Brand new rampers that don't know a single callout. Ops Check Normal for the majority of repeat write ups.

Don't forget reserve here is so unbearable it's better to take the 50% paycut and stay an FO. The phone rings and you have 90 minutes to get to the airport and deadhead to another base. When are you coming back? Nobody knows. 10 days off a month. Can't select morning or afternoon reserve and it doesn't matter anyhow because they will call and change it the day before.

Think that one over.

Yikes, suddenly my cr@ppy charter company flying job doesn't seem so bad after all. Thanks for all the advise guys, i was looking at Allegiant but after reading this stuff, fugetaboutit.

You are wise beyond your years.

And as soon as said ex-747 captain sees how things are done here, he will bolt. Those who have experienced good training and working conditions in the past do not last long at this company.

Hey Einstein, you know they voted in Teamsters right ? Not that I'm a Teamster fan, but I just can't let an opportunity to challenge your 70 IQ go by the wayside. BTW, does Trenton have jet ways yet Richard?

Entirely different local. Not that it makes too much of a difference. Don't you have some food stamps to go collect? Or is it your turn to give the BJs in HQ? :cool:

Never had to go on food stamps when I was on the street, but when your POS airline folds in less than 2 years let me know how it is!

Isn't there a Republic/F9 thread somewhere where you guys can duke it out?

In my interactions with people from the Teamsters, I have nothing but good things to say about them and how they are handling things.

Another note about HOM base (Home every Other Month):
Rental car will be provided if no airport shuttle. If there's a shuttle, then there will be a rental car shared by 2 crewmembers. At least you can trade-out grocery runs! ;) It would almost pay to buy an RV and get the hotel payout. The only problem being moving the thing on the potentially ONE day off between months and base changes!!

I can't believe how junior the last round of upgrades went...especially for bases other than HOM!!

Oh the horror. No auto spoilers. Not taking the captains right away to question things, but what do you think happened in the days before auto spoilers?

Is it MEL- able? Are there performance numbers that show it will be legal? If so, not much of a leg to stand on.

edit: I looked at performance charts (not for MD-80) and it says landings distance numbers are for both auto and manual spoilers

Have you taken an MD80 into Roanoke? I have.

Have you flown with auto spoilers inop? I have.

Would I mix the two as a new captain with a new FO? No.

When your margin for error comes down to a few dozen feet I'll err on the side of safety. Particularly since I've looked off the end of that runway before. But what do I know compared to a dispatcher with a spreadsheet and a guy on the internet who can look up the same?

Yes, a guy on the internet. I'll just go back to my MS flight simulator.:rolleyes:

Well by all means then apply. Management would love to have more guys like you.

If I had wanted to be at Allegiant, I would be probably be senior to you. Its not a path I chose.

As for choosing not to fly into an airport you have the numbers for and are legally dispatched, my company would have heart burn too.

A captain can make any choice he wants, but has to back it up. If it was legal, it may turn into career day.

Having flown both the 757 and MD80...... I would take the 757 in to ROA over the 80 any day of the week.. The 757 is a better short field performer than the 80. The 80 has no wing. Apples and oranges

The 757 is much better and I just used that to look at performance charts to see if there was a penalty.

I was always amazed seeing the turn offs they made when I was flying 727s. My statement still stands though. I have taken 727s into shorter fields before the days of auto-spoilers.

Isn't that the truth! The 757 is tons of "GO" and lots of "STOP". Boy, did Boeing screw the pooch by shutting down production....tsk tsk.

Swedish, just because something is legal does it mean that it is safe? ROA with no auto spoilers is legal as there are performance numbers for it, but it also certainly reduces the margin of safety. What's more, I would be willing to bet that there were other planes available that day that had operative auto spoilers, that were sent to runways in the Midwest or Northeast that were over 10,000 feet, where functional auto spoilers would be much less valuable. Throw in a new Captain and a new FO and safety margin is reduced further. An MD-80 with MELs affecting systems designed to stop the aircraft on the ground or one with all equipment functional... Which MD-80 would you rather be sitting in the back of with your family?

MD-80 is a tricky dawg without auto spoilers, even in the hands of the most experienced shady-80 pilots. If, after touchdown, if you're not right on airspeed, and quick with the manual extension, the plane WILL go flying again. Trust me, I've done it more than once and one of the times I actually had to take it around. Not pretty, and neither is manually deploying the spoilers after the bounce as this will defeat the lift, causing the plane to come down very abruptly (done that too--I suck).

Auto Spoilers, or lack thereof (they weren't armed), were the cause of the fatal MD-80 crash at Little Rock, where the plane went sailing off the end of the runway. Different scenario, but it underscores their importance.

Performance numbers look great on paper, but we all know they represent ideal conditions and test pilots. This guy was new, considered the challenges of the environment and his own limitations/experience. He made the call I would have wanted with my family on board. We should be commending him for his steadfast decision-making, judgement and conservative approach. I would love to see the FAA response to a guy like that getting terminated for solid judgement.

Dawg brings up an excellent point, you put a lot of faith in those numbers. Numbers derived almost forty years ago by the manufacture to sell the airplane. A factory fresh off the assembly line airplane with barely used brakes and tires. Flown by well-rested test pilots who are spring loaded because they knew it was coming.

Ya, the good old 72 could do it too. Great, how much more litigious have our AOMs and GOMs gotten since then? Now is a precarious time to get into any kind of altercation at our company. “Safety meetings”, are all out interrogations. They have an unabated look back on CVR and DVR and anything else they can get their grubby little hands on. These meetings most often cascade into other aspects of what they consider problems that may not necessarily have anything to do with what got you there.

Safety of course. And safeguarding against what can only be described as an out of control and overzealous bunch. No contractual guidelines and limitations on CVR and DVR use. No recourse and/or appellate process for disciplinary action via an SBA. Pushing things along to get along here is never remembered.

The American Eagle ATR captain who returned back to DFW and got fired for refusing to do the flight comes to mind. He had his career day and was terminated. Later sued amr and won. His defense mostly rested on the company’s and faa’s own guidelines: Captain has final authority. Courts have time and time again sided with this.

I would rather hang my hat on that, than be subject to a company inquiry for what will be a presumption of guilt for perceived negligent aircraft operation. This is their default attitude to any and all anomalies, regardless of circumstance legal or not.

This is my first post on the APC forums. I was avoiding joining but needed to reach out to you Allegiant folks.

I filled out the application and I have read the disclaimer on here about the work rules. My wife and I (and two kids) want to move to an area 10 mins from the PIE airport, and being at home every night is very attractive to us.

1) Is PIE fairly junior?

2) I'm a 7-year FO at expressjet. I have @4300TT, 0 TPIC and no degree(I'm working on it). Is that competitive at Allegiant?

3) I am at least 2 years from upgrade. Should I make the jump?

I would. PIE is very junior.

Your times are competitive.

I've said it a dozen times. If you are willing to suffer for a year and are a Regional FO then come here. If those two things don't apply to you then don't.

To be honest, I would have said go for it until I read the part above.

Make twice as much. Get divorced and she takes half. Now you are back to where you started financially.

ASJ

Thanks for the info. I assume I could expect reserve for a year then? Being in a junior base would I be TDYed much or just on call in base?

Eagle offspring. . I am also an 8 yr rj fo at a dying airline and interviewed yesterday. I can answer any questions if u wanna pm me.

Do not come here because you think you will see your family more - you won't. People are leaving in order to see their families more. To give you an idea, over the past 3-4 years, 3 'Mom FOs' with newborns have left (for other Airlines) because they actually want to see their children on occasion. :rolleyes:

I can't answer any of the questions accurately since I am no longer at aay. But I came from XJT as well and (besides pay, which is better at aay) EVERYTHING else is worse, health insurance, home time, xjt contract (currently) way better. If your wife has good ins and doesn't mind not seeing you much it might not be a bad move, but honestly even if you are "lucky" enough not to get HOM/TDY (whatever they want to call it) working 6 days in a row is exhausting, then add broken planes and scheduling into the mix. I had a buddy who had been at xjt 6 years and just left to go to compass....

I don't know what the performance for the MD-80 says. Is there a penalty for manual spoilers?

I understand the argument about ideal conditions, etc, but where does it stop?

Would you turn it down for crosswinds approaching the limit? I'm mean, your not a test pilot and it's not perfect conditions. What about the T/Rs being inop?

What if everything is working but he is still not comfortable with the margin? In my flight sim today, I had a 404 foot stopping margin if rejected at V1. That's doing everything perfect. Good thing I sit in a comfy office chair.

Uhhhh...

"Go ahead, it'll be like flying the B727."

Followed by... "I know you are a brand new captain, but how old are you again?"

I think there is enough hiring going on right now that time on reserve will be fairly short...'till the music stops! The Dec and Jan classes from this past year are mostly lineholders now, and a few are actually CA upgrades to a bona-fide base, as well as the HOM (TDY) base. A NH will likely get TDY'd around a bit 'till the next class comes online for you to bid out to a regular base.

How frequent, and how large are the classes?

I believe there's a place in management for you! When can you start?

Yes there is a penalty for manual spoilers. Don't remember what is.

On a somewhat unrelated note, I don't trust our dispatchers to figure out our landing performance.

A couple years ago, I found myself in a similar situation. We were supposed to go to an airport with an 8,000' runway. The only way in was an ILS, to minimums, at night, with a 10 knot tailwind. Ordinarily, not to bit of a deal, except for the braking action was poor due to snow and ice. My very "helpful" dispatcher had calculated we only needed 7,500' to land and stop, which included a 15% safety margin factored in to the number for which I don't really remember why. According to the tables in the book and QRH, under our anticipated landing weight, braking conditions, and the tailwind, I came up with closer to 11,000'.

We didn't go. The dispatcher got really unhappy, called me all kinds of names, and told me he was going to call management and tell them I refused to fly. I told him to go ahead, and I still wasn't going.

We eventually got in, several hours later, after they had been busy plowing the runway. I never heard a word about it from anyone in management.

Our dispatchers will try to force you in to anything. Safety here? It's just a meaningless word.

Under out wonderful Merlot PBS system, everyone gets reserve! It doesn't matter what your seniority number is.

Being TDY'd depends. They rolled out this wonderful thing of home basing. They say those people are the ones that will be subject to TDY all the time. No one knows much about it, so no one knows if it will work.

If it doesn't work, or there aren't enough people available that are home based to be TDY'd, they will pull people out of whichever base they determine is "overstaffed."

Also, being on reserve in PIE doesn't mean you will just cover PIE. If you are on the 80, right now they will get you a rental car and send you to SFB, PGD, and FLL. They will also get you a plane ticket and give you a scenic tour of the US as they send you out chasing broken airplanes. Or, they might buy you a ticket to pick up a plane from heavy maintenance, which is always an exciting flight.