Pre-bankruptcy, AE's aircraft were listed as owned by AE. Our contract specified that those aircraft must be owned by AE, and that we would operate them. The company decided to transfer ownership of the aircraft to AA, and ALPA filed a grievance. As part of the grievance settlement, a flow through agreement was established for all pilots on property as of the date of signing (OCT of '11) that didn't already have AA numbers or would be included in the 824 grievance settlement. The agreement refers to them as "protected pilots."

With SMP starting in January, I'm thinking many will leave earlier now that they have medical insurance to carry them to 65 until medicare kicks in.

LOL I know exactly who you are talking about!

Ran the info through a google his wife runs a roofing business out of their house in GA. I think she was a model a LONG time ago.

I honestly wasn’t aware someone could BS that much and do it so eloquently...

Regardless of what you guys have going on at Eagle/Envoy.. next year you'll flow roughly 300-400 another 150 will come from PDT and PSA . That would leave roughly 300-400 to come from military or civilian.

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The last few years AA hasn't had December classes, so 275 for envoy.

Stated in plain English, Envoy’s flow of the current Protected Pilots is the LESSER of 50% of the AA new hire class or 25 per month. Is that what everyone understands?

In other words, if AA hires more than 600 pilots per year (50 per month) the max of 25 per month (300 per year) is reached.

All the caveats apply about any month without a class will decrease the 300 per year by 25, etc., etc.

She looks younger than him, but the VS supermodel, G5 and the partying claims? I don’t think he’s got that much Zip in his step.

I see what you did there :-)

It's not the lesser of the two. The language states 50% of the new hire classes at AA will be flow through from Envoy. However, Envoy management can restrict that to 25 if they claim the 50% would cause operational difficulty. Envoy hired over 100 pilots last month alone but we still metered to 25. Operational difficulty is very subjective.

It isn't just the subjectivity of the phrase that is the problem, it is management's bad faith interpretation. We metered while zero time lines were in our bid packet and reserves weren't flying. RW said in public that we will always meter. How could he know that we would always have operational difficulty? He couldn't. But he knows that management will always interpret whatever realities occur as such. That is not the same as subjectivity. That is a dishonest practice, cut and dry.

Can AA meter all three WO to zero and hire like other airline do?

Many have had SMP for years and havn't left. Even military guys with Tricare have stayed past 62.

Amongst A scalers it was more like 60% left around 60 and 40% stayed to 65. Avg retirement age was 62. Now it's 64. Ninety percent stay to 65, 10% leave around 60.

When I flew with him last he was up to a second Gulfstream.

Nice guy too, he didn’t need to fabricate his life.

Dont forget the Ruth Chris Steakhouse he owns of the penthouse in the Aria. Last trip I had played a game that every time he set his hooks to talk the BS, I changed discussion and wouldn’t let him spout his stuff. Over 4 days, I never let him get one of his lies outof his mouth. Amused me to no end and I’m sure frustrated him. I even watched him build the pics on photoshop while we flew.

That guy is completely delusional

Where's Richie Rich based?

Charlotte. Used to always fly redeyes.

Ouch! Rumor has it one of Miami finest went to CLT, he even switched airplanes :-/

Any paperclips used on the Bus for holding stuff like the ATIS/WX or Load Closeout?

No they can’t. At least for PSA they can hold till December but all Flow pilots must go before December 31st if hiring was done at AA.

Wow, this is like a club.

I made the mistake of going out for beers with him. On the one hand he's basically telling me his wife makes more in a week than he makes in a year, then he didn't even pick up the beer tab...

"So you spent $50k commuting from LAX to CLT on a G5 to make $3k on this red eye?"

Little stick on plastic clips seem to be preferred on the bus. CA paper clip went to the bus?

That is of course with the current flow agreements. Word has it PSA is likely going to increase their flow numbers and have flow language similar to Envoy as part of any new deal with management.

I flew a Vegas red eye with him a couple years ago. Was trying to figure out why we were eating at the hotel bar if he owns a Ruth’s Chris. And why weren’t we partying with his super hot wife and all her friends who happened to be in town that night????

Or why he was on the van to the Palace Station when he owns a penthouse in the Aria

You got it, one and only!

Dude.. sarcasm. I for one would like to see regular hiring process and none of this flow BS.

We only have 2 classes scheduled for 2017. PSA would have to put 45 + pilots to meet their annual flow obligation.

If my wife had a G5 you losers would be history and you’d definitely never find me flying a LAS-CLT redeye

Unless it was in the back of my wife’s G5.


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Well apparently I’m a sexy ***** cuz he chose to hang out with me and not her and her harem!

A LOT of guys say that.

I have yet to come across any who actually do it .

That’s because they are retired and out fishing not hanging out in the crew room.

Download the seniority list off APA page.....updated monthly....shows early retirements......significantly more than 0 retire early

A guy publishes monthly retirement data. Ten percent leave at an avg age of 60, 90% stay to 65.

10/29/2017 - 12/31/2017 201
01/01/2018 - 12/31/2018 528
01/01/2019 - 12/31/2019 637
01/01/2020 - 12/31/2020 772
01/01/2021 - 12/31/2021 838
01/01/2022 - 12/31/2022 861
01/01/2023 - 12/31/2023 957

Retirements at age 65 so 900 doesn't seem out of line to stay ahead of attrition. (and early retirements of course!)

The company's estimate for 2017 retirements looked like they were using know retirements and adding 15%. That's close to the historical average I tracked years ago. That would indicate perhaps 607 retirements next year.

Using the recent actually retirements with 10% coming from guys averaging 60 yrs old would indicate perhaps 627 reitementes next year. 528 + 10% of 2023's.

Two assumptions = 617 +/- 10.

Hiring nine hundred next year would result in apaprox a two percent increase in manning which is approx the same percentage as the long term expected growth in the industry. So nothing unexpected in those percentages.

Junior CA upgrade will go to mid 2013 hires in NY if they want it. Wide body FO will be mid to late 2013 hires on this next bid. That's my prediction. Things are clicking big time. Expect lots of movement.

I like your optimism

Maybe a little soon for 13 hires. I'm an 04 hire and was awarded in July. I'm near the bottom and there's all the 05, 07-08 hires (if they want it)to go, then you have 11-12 hires.

Unless of course you're referring to the E190.

That means junior CA would have to drop approx. 1650 numbers in the next bid run. That's looking at the typical DOH amongst a bunch of people and not the random 2013 DOH amongst a bunch of 2001 DOH's.

The seniority list/DOH gets scrambled because there's a bunch of 2013's mixed with 1999 DOH's, then groups of 2013 DOH's, and alternating 1999 and 2013's, then fewer 2013's mixed with 2001 DOH's. It doesn't become pure 2013 DOH's until 12450 ish.

Current junior CA DOH, non AWA, is 3/2001. 10,8xx of 15,xxx. On property is 10,679 of 14,542 (73%). Junior CA percentage used to be 60-65%. Then it dropped closer to 70%. Now it's 73%. That's because the G4 FO job pays the same (FO line holder vs CA rsv) and gives you better relative seniority. So the junior CA is 3,863 numbers senior to the junior guy on the list. That's under five years to upgrade assuming typical retirement patterns.