Timeframe for an AA AIP
 

With the recent events regarding negotiations within American and the AIP that’s been reached at DAL, what’s a best guess on a realistic timeframe for AA/APA producing an AIP? I imagine the DAL AIP has lit a small fire under the collective butts of those that would broker it, but it seems very far away at this point. Given the looming “recession” and other socioeconomic problems, I’m just curious what the consensus is (if there is one at all). Thanks!

Realistically. 2025.

If the DAL AIP becomes a TA and passes, I think we’ll have an AIP and then TA within 2 to 3 months, then a couple months to road show and vote. AA will start losing many more new hires if they don’t match DAL on rates and retirement at the very least. QOL will need to be worked out. I was not optimistic before, but am more so now.

I agree. Once the Delta TA passes I think United will be next followed by Southwest and then American. I’d imagine all four Big 4 carriers will be within a few dollars of each other within the next 12 months.

Lol no. If they drag their feet that long they will lose alot of new hire talent.

Our geriatric Union moves at a snails pace. They also like to spread everything out over months to give the BOD more excuses to have more conventions with catered meals at luxury hotels in Dallas. So last month was forming the new negotiating committee, this month's luxury convention was to determine that we need a new survey. Next month will be to go over the results of that survey with the "SMEs". In February the BODs will get anther paid vacation in a Dallas 5 star resort with catered meals to tell the Negotiating committee what to negotiate with the company. and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on and so on

So before you get too excited about "time-frames" just realize that it hasn't even started yet, we are a long way way from even that.

At least another year. And until we retire at least another 5000 that's the wAAy it's always been types, nothing will ever change.

I think we are a minimum of 6 months away from negotiating anything, and likely 10-12 months away from negoting anything that comes close to what Delta got in their future TA. It will boil down to the company being willing to match Delta pay(at a minimum) and actually being willing to allow QOL increases for our pilots. So far, they have not shown that they are willing to entertain any significant changes/increases that would bring us even close to industry-standard levels.

Just like Delta, it will likely take upper AA leadership actually attending negotiating sessions for us to get anywhere. Otherwise they will claim one thing publically, while behind the scenes they are directing the company negotiators to slow-roll the pilots and not agree to anything. Classes will always be full at AA, even if we do make less $ and have worse QOL than Spirit amd Jetblue. There is no incentive for AA negotiators to negotiate anything close to what Delta got. We have not even asked for mediation yet. Until we file for mediation, imagine whatever time line it takes to achieve a TA, being moved in the future day by day by day...always leaving us x amount of days away from a TA.

Delta contract talks "re-opened" post COVID in Jan 2022. (They originally opened in 2019) but I think everyone had a gentlemens agreement that COVID changed things)

December 2022 it appears they have a contract

1 year for Delta if we are using Jan until now

In my opinion AA management will have to move quickly.

Delta being the first mover will attract new hires. United’s massive expansion will attract new hires and I believe Kirby will move to quickly close pilot negotiations with a contract similar to Delta.

American and Southwest are a distant 3rd choice for new hires. By Summer 2023 it’s going to be a problem and slow their ability to grow.

The recent quick to close deals at Spirit and JetBlue show just how bad the pilot shortage is getting.

I hope you are correct. Unfortunately AA classes are completely full, and always will be. Everyone comes to AA thinking things will improve in the future. The joke is on all of us however. AA really does not even have to negotiate a contract that evem meets jetblue or spitit rates, and of course they certainly will never have to offer QOL contract enhancements that would bring us closer to airlines like spirit, jetlblue, or Alaska. The classes are full and will be in the future too.

When the 'scientifically accurate' polling comes back to APA and tells them the pilots want a quick deal, they will then revert to negotiating sub-jetblue payrates , with some concessions like continuous duty overnights and others, sprinkled with some per diem increases. Then the pilots will send a bunch of soundoffs saying they don't want to be paid less than every other airline in the United States and don't want concessions, then APA will conduct more scientifically accurate telephone polling and run an Ad in the Dallas Morning News saying AA pilots have had enough. Then I imagine, we will finally file for mediation sometime in 2024, and reach an agreement shortly thereafter in the Spring 2024 timeframe. The agreement will, one-year later, only match Delta rates, and offer little to nothing in terms of QOL enhancements. Retro will likely increase to about 1/2 of what Delta received.

Then, life will go on at AA. The ORD chair will win another BOD election, AA recruiters will talk about all the upcoming retirements and increased pay, even though it will still trail every other airline in total compensation and benefits. Upgrades and time to widebody will continue to occur faster at United and Delta, evem with AA's retirements. The cycle will repeat every 5 years.

ultimately, until we file for mediation and/or AA pilot new-hire classes start with empty seats, AA negotiators will continue to play dumb and slow-roll the pilots. They will offer nothing of real value, and certainly nothing that equates to industry-standard.

Classes will stay full, but as guys take a date here while waiting on DAL or UA, and then subsequently leave, attrition will become a problem added to the retirements. This is exactly why NK/B6/AK are ahead of us now. They're absolutely hemorrhaging pilots. Our NC needs to call them out on the baloney and keep leverage not give give give "just to get something." File for mediation will most likely happen again. Didn't we file in July? And ya know, maybe put the fear into the company/actually strike.

Never because we suck now

Thanks for the thoughts, everyone. I asked the original question because I left DAL for AA because of the choice to live in base. My family and I live in a major hub for AA, and are unwilling to move given our current situation. I’m holding out hope that AA will be able to provide compensation and QOL on par with, or better than, everyone else. One can hope. 🤞

im rooting for you. I think most or all of us want this airline and union to be successful, we just have not been given much to work with to lift our spirits.

The good news is, our horrible pilot demographics and lack of unity will likely be improving in the years and decades to come.

I don't get this "AA will drag their feet because classes are full" narrative. You don't think classes were full over at Delta?

The difference was a united pilot group and a strong union. THAT is the difference. Stop with this "classes are full" nonsense I see all over the various boards. It's a Legacy, what do you expect?

If the pilot group keeps turning down TAs in the future wouldn’t that require mediation anyways?

Why would anyone vote YES to something less than our peers at DAL/UAL regerding pay and QOL?
We can get it - just gotta make sure the voices are heard through the vote to get it.

You made the right choice. It will work out. If LBFO79 is correct…and he could be…you can bail. I don’t think he is correct. We will lose 100 plus new hires this year, as most will in this environment. If AA and APA drag their feet and we aren’t making progress this winter, we will lose a lot more, including pilots that have been here for several years. Our training department can’t keep up with that, and we can’t just keep reducing flights. The old “AA retirements are massive” argument isn’t that important in todays environment. Jumping ship when 2000 will quickly be behind you is a nothing burger. Yes, of course we will fill classes, but we will be a stepping stone. Don’t buy the doom and gloom and don’t pre spend money from an anticipated contract.

This is the most senior pilot group in the U.S., maybe the world. They have been beaten down so many times that they have Stockholm Syndrome at this point where they will say yes to any piece of turd passed down to them from the Company. Also the BOD put a little sweetener in there to get the old guard to sign, and that was an extra week of vacation for those over 25 years seniority. This TA was definitely fixed to get a 51% to 55% vote to pass which is why thank god it never got to a vote because it would have passed.

You know how many CA's I've flown with on the line that would have signed our embarrassment of a TA because ""ItS bEtTeR tHaN nOtHiNg" and "YoU nEvEr KnOw WhEn ThE nExT dOwNtUrN wIlL hIt".

While both of those may technically be true, it is definitely worth the risk to take advantage of the best negotiating environment ever seen for pilots.

Crazy to think that it’s better than nothing mentality. I can easily live off this contract right now - if a downturn happens I’m fine. Vote for a better life in the long run not for the next 3-5 years lol

I just want an 18 hour call out and some reassignment pay so we stop getting abused
And positive space commuting

I bet spirit votes down their TA, and I had that thought before JetBlue released theirs

Those things are so simple and would go a long way.

I’ve been told the positive space commuting is a big hurdle due to large numbers of pilots living outside the US. I’ve always wondered how many people that actually is?

I’d settle for 3 positive space per month, COMMUTING-ONLY, and scheduled at least 48 hours in advance of departure, to be used either coming or going.

Not sure why international commuting would be any different.

I have been holding out hope for 24 years. Don’t count on it. Management does not understand how our QOL lags behind our ALPA brothers and sisters. They will offer us the money but no way the QOL will be anywhere near what it should be. If you don’t live in an AA base don’t bother applying. We suck.

I GENUINELY mean no offense by this, but it’s this kind of self-deprecating talk that management wants. Management understands exactly what’s going on. I believe we are sunsetting the time in which our collective negotiating power is strongest. The time to act is now to push for what we deserve. I do not mean that we quickly negotiate something sub-par. I mean that we, like DAL, give management our major contractual gains and let them know that we want them with no concessions. If this takes 1.5 years (or more) to negotiate, fine. But we may never find a time like this again in which we have this leverage.

I’m all in on making AA a better place; not just for pilots, but all employees AND customers. I’m cautiously optimistic that we can achieve this.

Just stating the facts. There is no way in hell I will vote yes for anything less than Delta agreement. I am not alone. Therefore no contract until 2025.

I am currently chasing down my 13 hrs. Of Holiday pay that was not in any pay statement. That’s $4200 shorted prior to taxes. Another wonderful fact being employed by this formally good airline. Chasing down pay that should have been paid. The frustrations never end. We actually have a pilot that will audit your pay for you. Costs you $10 a month. Why can a pilot get it correct yet a huge corporation with endless accountants and programmers get it so wrong? Because we suck.

I pay 30 bucks a month between that and LS because of the technological inadequacies and shady practices of AA.

From a little jumpseat bird....

Probably by summer whether or not DALPA passes their's. Of course the quality will vary. He said, without saying as much, that it's the "total package" expressed in $'s, not hourly or highlights that are posted on APC. So, matching rates isn't he goal. It's the total cost of the package compared to others. He did say QOL issues were the priority and were the hangups. He did mention that aircraft purchases/acquisition were dependent on having a contract. Financing depends on it.

Too many airlines and too many contracts. To much disappointment over the years to get worked up about it. There is no perfect contract, union or management. They all suck pretty much. Work to live, don't live to work (or ***** about stuff).

Sorry but if this is from a jumpseat rider, then it’s a CKA or some middle management type. Basically they don’t have any idea what the actual decision makers are thinking.

Executives who actually control the pace and the terms of negotiations don’t ride jumpseats.

I completely disagree.

Management doesn't want self-deprecating talk from us, they want us to think everything is great and that we're awesome. Ra Ra go team, KDA. Many in our management actually believe it too, they have no clue what's actually going on.

Never ascribe to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

Yeah, idk. Maybe that was their attitude prior to the recent gains made at other carriers (including regionals), but there is no way that’s the case now.

Either way, we both agree that something needs to be done.

It’s really disheartening to read that people are paying someone to audit their pay for them. I’m at Envoy and my single biggest complaint is that I spend hours every month and numerous emails to pay comp every month to sort out pay. They get it wrong, in the companies favor of course, almost every single month. They misquote and misinterpret the contract to the support their position until they finally give in after numerous emails and me quoting the contract over and over. I’ve worked for numerous companies over my adult life and I’ve never had to work so hard on just my pay stub. I’ll be at AA soon and, in my mind, leaving Envoy meant no more pay roll fights. Reading this post was like a gut punch. You can’t even fix that with a fresh contract. It’s just the way they do business. If they can get away with it because you’re not auditing your pay, the company save money at your GREAT expense. :-(

What is super fishy at AA is that in 5 years 100% of the errors have been in the companys favor. Things that make you go ummm. Bunch of crooks. Dont get me started on Ramp Delays being kicked out.

At least you will be mentally prepared and there are plenty of great options in the industry if you decide to bail on AAL.

Living near an AA dominated base makes AA near top of the list for me. There are two others I’d rather be at and I will admit that I’m hoping that once I have AA on my resume, they give me a look. But there is a really big incentive to at least show up for day one of AA at the moment. Maybe I’ll be one of those referenced attrition numbers… collect the bonus and move on, lol.

The most disheartening thing is that you will be at AA soon. Run.

6 1/2 hours to get a hotel because I refuse to be my own travel agent.

Midnight sims imposed on us when contract says no way.

volunteer seat fillers instead of check pilots.

Simulator training on Christmas and other holidays.

This week Isom and the new VP of flight have stated publicly that AA is not Delta. That means you will not be compensated as such.

I have had a good career but the entire time I have been here has been very frustrating. The one thing that has driven us down is management. They honestly believe things are just fine among our ranks. Once in the door they never fly the line again. They lose touch from reality or don’t care. Hetterman, Long, Price, Lavfold, Kudwa. All infamous managers that have never flown the line. Punches thrown, taxiing while on the cell phone, former head negotiator for APA, less than 3000 hrs flight time in a 32 year career at AA. I would add a certain senior manager that was recently escorted out of the building but I can’t verify yet. It happened this last week.

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Where was this? Link?

Unless something changed or was said recently, there isn’t a link because that’s not what was said.

Isom tap danced around the topic of the Delta AIP at one of the company propaganda events. Then a “Senior Vice President of Flight Operations and IOC” (translation: his opinion doesn’t really matter, and he’s a known pilot hater) supposedly told some pilots at that FAA-mandated industry-wide “be professional” class that the Delta AIP is lucrative for AA pilots but not to expect a penny more. What would you expect them to say?

Anyone who thinks Isom will offer anything beyond an exact match of Delta rates and Delta rates only is delusional. He’ll ask for concessions and provide essentially zero QoL gains. He’ll release that proposal directly to the pilots and media, attempting to go around APA, with hollow threats of parking widebodies (that’s a sure way for him to get fired) and a deadline to approve it or it’s gone. It’s directly from his union busting playbook.

It’s up to the APA BoD/NC to get QoL work rule improvements, and the membership to vote it down if it’s not at least to the level of the Delta AIP.

It’s a no from me dawg
And hopefully 50+1 of the pilot group

Yeah but Isom’s goal is to delay as long as possible. The longer the company delays the more money they save. Think about it, more and more senior people retire everyday. When new pay rates eventually come it will be cheaper if it’s all delayed because a lot of the senior higher paid pilots will be already gone. Some bean counter somewhere probably has done the math and has a graph that shows how much money they save the longer they delay with the higher paid pilots gone.

Besides, the company has no reason to rush anything other than getting some PR. The airline still runs whether the pilots have a new contract or not and new hire pilot classes are still being filled.

Yes, everyone wants a huge QOL win and Delta’s new pay rates, but I don’t see either happening anytime soon.