From the American Airlines VP Ops/Chief Pilot
08-07-2012 | 05:09 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 114
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08-07-2012 | 09:13 AM
#32
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,042
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From: 737 CA MIA
Sir guys like you are blind and don't see that AMR has the least amount of "regional feed" between the legacies... Your problem sir is not Eagle, look at JetBlue, Alaska and others... That is where your flying has gone! When you guys quit trying to blame Eagle for everything while management gives it away to others you might stand a chance. I work at Eagle and thank you for voting no on this TA.
I flew at a commuter for 9 years. I do not blame Eagle. I'm all for Eagle rolled into AA. They (management) will not go for it.
Have you seen the LBFO? I don't think you've seen the scope and looked at the numbers.
Ownership and registration for every Eagle Jet was transfered to AA on/between Aug 2011 through Oct 12th 2011. $2.5 Billion of debt was tranferred from Eagle to AA. The plan on the Eagle spinoff was Eagle would pay a nominal fee monthly to AA for the use of the < 50 seat jets in order to give Eagle a chance to be competitive.
The plan is to trade all of your (oops, I mean AA's) < 50 seat jets in to Embraer for E-170's (69 seats) and E-175's (80 seats minus 1) 79 seaters.
We owned all flying above 50 seats must be performed by the pilots of APA.
So unless Eagle is rolled into AA, then Eagle is my problem.
My respect to all pilots of American Eagle.
08-07-2012 | 01:13 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2011
Posts: 521
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We went into BK, and then took two concessionary deals.
We never took a pay cut before the BK process.
08-07-2012 | 02:32 PM
#35
Thread Starter
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 1,042
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From: 737 CA MIA
I got no inside numbers. I've spoken with a lot of NO voters. But then Holly Hegeman writes an article saying we NO voters are uniformed, we are emotional. She says to vote YES.
There you have it, she is Madame Cleo. Did she tell the United guys how to vote? The Delta pilots?
Holly Hegeman was a receptionist, personal assistant coffee getter for Bob Crandall. I'm sure she still has a lot of contacts at Centerport.
But the day she gets her ATP in a 757 is the day I listen to her opinion on anything directly related to my career contract, work rules and pay!
Go write a Murphy Brown episode.
I VOTED NO TO THE AA TA
I GAVE IN 2003
7576FO
08-07-2012 | 04:35 PM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 114
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See: ALPA News Release
and: ALPA News Release
Makes me want to puke thinking about those days.
08-07-2012 | 09:43 PM
#37
Don't say Guppy
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 1,926
Likes: 0
From: Guppy driver
I worked for UAL for 13 years until I took a voluntary furlough 4 years ago. I watched USAIR, UAL, and then Delta management execute exactly the same game-plan that is being played against American now.
Please educate yourselves on section 1113 of the bankruptcy code. It was put in place to protect employees from companies that used to declare bankruptcy for the sole purpose of abrogating labor contracts. For some reason the pilot unions' view it as a free ride for the company. It is exactly the opposite. It is an additional bankruptcy protection for you labor agreement.
Section 1113 does allow the judge to abrogate labor agreements, and impose new terms, FOR THE TERM OF BANKRUPTCY ALONE. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME. To do this, the company has to show that all of other creditors have also taken a similar "haircut".
What happened to the rest of us? The company came to us with a "term sheet". Same exact words as your management. They threatened us that if we didn't come to a consensual agreement, they would have the judge impose their "term sheet". In fact, they can request it, but the judge might not say yes, and might impose less onerous terms, in line with the rest of the creditors. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME, AND NOT FOR 6 YEARS.
So USAIR, UAL, and DELTA pilots caved. Then, a year later, they said they need more concessions, and if we didn't agree they would "1113" it, but if we agreed we could keep our pensions. So again, we caved in. A year later they said that if we didn't voluntarily terminate our pensions, the company would not survive. Guess what, we caved. Again.
If the judge does it, he will only do it once. If we would have done this, we would have taken a 30% pay cut, and possibly retained out pensions. Possibly. In the end, we took a 40-45% cut in basic pay, lost so many work rules and benefits that it is actually more like a 60% plus cut in pay. We furloughed over 25% of the pilots, and now fly the same number of flights with 2/3 the number of pilots we had pre-bankruptcy due to lost work rules. And we voluntarily gave up our pensions.
I would highly recommend you vote no, and let the judge make the decision. He will only do it once, and by law, he will look at the haircut the other creditors have taken, and make sure that your cuts are in line with theirs. That is Section 1113 of the bankuptcy code. When you come out of bankruptcy you can start your post bankruptcy negotiations.
Or, you can go down the same path as we did. USAIR, UAL, and Delta.
BTW, if you volunteer for this contract, it is a "freebee". The company can then threaten you again will 1113, and this first round of cuts won't count. You volunteered.
I would let the judge do it.
IMHO
Please educate yourselves on section 1113 of the bankruptcy code. It was put in place to protect employees from companies that used to declare bankruptcy for the sole purpose of abrogating labor contracts. For some reason the pilot unions' view it as a free ride for the company. It is exactly the opposite. It is an additional bankruptcy protection for you labor agreement.
Section 1113 does allow the judge to abrogate labor agreements, and impose new terms, FOR THE TERM OF BANKRUPTCY ALONE. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME. To do this, the company has to show that all of other creditors have also taken a similar "haircut".
What happened to the rest of us? The company came to us with a "term sheet". Same exact words as your management. They threatened us that if we didn't come to a consensual agreement, they would have the judge impose their "term sheet". In fact, they can request it, but the judge might not say yes, and might impose less onerous terms, in line with the rest of the creditors. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME, AND NOT FOR 6 YEARS.
So USAIR, UAL, and DELTA pilots caved. Then, a year later, they said they need more concessions, and if we didn't agree they would "1113" it, but if we agreed we could keep our pensions. So again, we caved in. A year later they said that if we didn't voluntarily terminate our pensions, the company would not survive. Guess what, we caved. Again.
If the judge does it, he will only do it once. If we would have done this, we would have taken a 30% pay cut, and possibly retained out pensions. Possibly. In the end, we took a 40-45% cut in basic pay, lost so many work rules and benefits that it is actually more like a 60% plus cut in pay. We furloughed over 25% of the pilots, and now fly the same number of flights with 2/3 the number of pilots we had pre-bankruptcy due to lost work rules. And we voluntarily gave up our pensions.
I would highly recommend you vote no, and let the judge make the decision. He will only do it once, and by law, he will look at the haircut the other creditors have taken, and make sure that your cuts are in line with theirs. That is Section 1113 of the bankuptcy code. When you come out of bankruptcy you can start your post bankruptcy negotiations.
Or, you can go down the same path as we did. USAIR, UAL, and Delta.
BTW, if you volunteer for this contract, it is a "freebee". The company can then threaten you again will 1113, and this first round of cuts won't count. You volunteered.
I would let the judge do it.
IMHO
08-07-2012 | 10:02 PM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 820
Likes: 0
I worked for UAL for 13 years until I took a voluntary furlough 4 years ago. I watched USAIR, UAL, and then Delta management execute exactly the same game-plan that is being played against American now.
Please educate yourselves on section 1113 of the bankruptcy code. It was put in place to protect employees from companies that used to declare bankruptcy for the sole purpose of abrogating labor contracts. For some reason the pilot unions' view it as a free ride for the company. It is exactly the opposite. It is an additional bankruptcy protection for you labor agreement.
Section 1113 does allow the judge to abrogate labor agreements, and impose new terms, FOR THE TERM OF BANKRUPTCY ALONE. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME. To do this, the company has to show that all of other creditors have also taken a similar "haircut".
What happened to the rest of us? The company came to us with a "term sheet". Same exact words as your management. They threatened us that if we didn't come to a consensual agreement, they would have the judge impose their "term sheet". In fact, they can request it, but the judge might not say yes, and might impose less onerous terms, in line with the rest of the creditors. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME, AND NOT FOR 6 YEARS.
So USAIR, UAL, and DELTA pilots caved. Then, a year later, they said they need more concessions, and if we didn't agree they would "1113" it, but if we agreed we could keep our pensions. So again, we caved in. A year later they said that if we didn't voluntarily terminate our pensions, the company would not survive. Guess what, we caved. Again.
If the judge does it, he will only do it once. If we would have done this, we would have taken a 30% pay cut, and possibly retained out pensions. Possibly. In the end, we took a 40-45% cut in basic pay, lost so many work rules and benefits that it is actually more like a 60% plus cut in pay. We furloughed over 25% of the pilots, and now fly the same number of flights with 2/3 the number of pilots we had pre-bankruptcy due to lost work rules. And we voluntarily gave up our pensions.
I would highly recommend you vote no, and let the judge make the decision. He will only do it once, and by law, he will look at the haircut the other creditors have taken, and make sure that your cuts are in line with theirs. That is Section 1113 of the bankuptcy code. When you come out of bankruptcy you can start your post bankruptcy negotiations.
Or, you can go down the same path as we did. USAIR, UAL, and Delta.
BTW, if you volunteer for this contract, it is a "freebee". The company can then threaten you again will 1113, and this first round of cuts won't count. You volunteered.
I would let the judge do it.
IMHO
Please educate yourselves on section 1113 of the bankruptcy code. It was put in place to protect employees from companies that used to declare bankruptcy for the sole purpose of abrogating labor contracts. For some reason the pilot unions' view it as a free ride for the company. It is exactly the opposite. It is an additional bankruptcy protection for you labor agreement.
Section 1113 does allow the judge to abrogate labor agreements, and impose new terms, FOR THE TERM OF BANKRUPTCY ALONE. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME. To do this, the company has to show that all of other creditors have also taken a similar "haircut".
What happened to the rest of us? The company came to us with a "term sheet". Same exact words as your management. They threatened us that if we didn't come to a consensual agreement, they would have the judge impose their "term sheet". In fact, they can request it, but the judge might not say yes, and might impose less onerous terms, in line with the rest of the creditors. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME, AND NOT FOR 6 YEARS.
So USAIR, UAL, and DELTA pilots caved. Then, a year later, they said they need more concessions, and if we didn't agree they would "1113" it, but if we agreed we could keep our pensions. So again, we caved in. A year later they said that if we didn't voluntarily terminate our pensions, the company would not survive. Guess what, we caved. Again.
If the judge does it, he will only do it once. If we would have done this, we would have taken a 30% pay cut, and possibly retained out pensions. Possibly. In the end, we took a 40-45% cut in basic pay, lost so many work rules and benefits that it is actually more like a 60% plus cut in pay. We furloughed over 25% of the pilots, and now fly the same number of flights with 2/3 the number of pilots we had pre-bankruptcy due to lost work rules. And we voluntarily gave up our pensions.
I would highly recommend you vote no, and let the judge make the decision. He will only do it once, and by law, he will look at the haircut the other creditors have taken, and make sure that your cuts are in line with theirs. That is Section 1113 of the bankuptcy code. When you come out of bankruptcy you can start your post bankruptcy negotiations.
Or, you can go down the same path as we did. USAIR, UAL, and Delta.
BTW, if you volunteer for this contract, it is a "freebee". The company can then threaten you again will 1113, and this first round of cuts won't count. You volunteered.
I would let the judge do it.
IMHO
08-08-2012 | 04:13 AM
#39
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
I worked for UAL for 13 years until I took a voluntary furlough 4 years ago. I watched USAIR, UAL, and then Delta management execute exactly the same game-plan that is being played against American now.
Please educate yourselves on section 1113 of the bankruptcy code. It was put in place to protect employees from companies that used to declare bankruptcy for the sole purpose of abrogating labor contracts. For some reason the pilot unions' view it as a free ride for the company. It is exactly the opposite. It is an additional bankruptcy protection for you labor agreement.
Section 1113 does allow the judge to abrogate labor agreements, and impose new terms, FOR THE TERM OF BANKRUPTCY ALONE. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME. To do this, the company has to show that all of other creditors have also taken a similar "haircut".
What happened to the rest of us? The company came to us with a "term sheet". Same exact words as your management. They threatened us that if we didn't come to a consensual agreement, they would have the judge impose their "term sheet". In fact, they can request it, but the judge might not say yes, and might impose less onerous terms, in line with the rest of the creditors. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME, AND NOT FOR 6 YEARS.
So USAIR, UAL, and DELTA pilots caved. Then, a year later, they said they need more concessions, and if we didn't agree they would "1113" it, but if we agreed we could keep our pensions. So again, we caved in. A year later they said that if we didn't voluntarily terminate our pensions, the company would not survive. Guess what, we caved. Again.
If the judge does it, he will only do it once. If we would have done this, we would have taken a 30% pay cut, and possibly retained out pensions. Possibly. In the end, we took a 40-45% cut in basic pay, lost so many work rules and benefits that it is actually more like a 60% plus cut in pay. We furloughed over 25% of the pilots, and now fly the same number of flights with 2/3 the number of pilots we had pre-bankruptcy due to lost work rules. And we voluntarily gave up our pensions.
I would highly recommend you vote no, and let the judge make the decision. He will only do it once, and by law, he will look at the haircut the other creditors have taken, and make sure that your cuts are in line with theirs. That is Section 1113 of the bankuptcy code. When you come out of bankruptcy you can start your post bankruptcy negotiations.
Or, you can go down the same path as we did. USAIR, UAL, and Delta.
BTW, if you volunteer for this contract, it is a "freebee". The company can then threaten you again will 1113, and this first round of cuts won't count. You volunteered.
I would let the judge do it.
IMHO
Please educate yourselves on section 1113 of the bankruptcy code. It was put in place to protect employees from companies that used to declare bankruptcy for the sole purpose of abrogating labor contracts. For some reason the pilot unions' view it as a free ride for the company. It is exactly the opposite. It is an additional bankruptcy protection for you labor agreement.
Section 1113 does allow the judge to abrogate labor agreements, and impose new terms, FOR THE TERM OF BANKRUPTCY ALONE. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME. To do this, the company has to show that all of other creditors have also taken a similar "haircut".
What happened to the rest of us? The company came to us with a "term sheet". Same exact words as your management. They threatened us that if we didn't come to a consensual agreement, they would have the judge impose their "term sheet". In fact, they can request it, but the judge might not say yes, and might impose less onerous terms, in line with the rest of the creditors. AND THE JUDGE WILL ONLY DO THIS ONE TIME, AND NOT FOR 6 YEARS.
So USAIR, UAL, and DELTA pilots caved. Then, a year later, they said they need more concessions, and if we didn't agree they would "1113" it, but if we agreed we could keep our pensions. So again, we caved in. A year later they said that if we didn't voluntarily terminate our pensions, the company would not survive. Guess what, we caved. Again.
If the judge does it, he will only do it once. If we would have done this, we would have taken a 30% pay cut, and possibly retained out pensions. Possibly. In the end, we took a 40-45% cut in basic pay, lost so many work rules and benefits that it is actually more like a 60% plus cut in pay. We furloughed over 25% of the pilots, and now fly the same number of flights with 2/3 the number of pilots we had pre-bankruptcy due to lost work rules. And we voluntarily gave up our pensions.
I would highly recommend you vote no, and let the judge make the decision. He will only do it once, and by law, he will look at the haircut the other creditors have taken, and make sure that your cuts are in line with theirs. That is Section 1113 of the bankuptcy code. When you come out of bankruptcy you can start your post bankruptcy negotiations.
Or, you can go down the same path as we did. USAIR, UAL, and Delta.
BTW, if you volunteer for this contract, it is a "freebee". The company can then threaten you again will 1113, and this first round of cuts won't count. You volunteered.
I would let the judge do it.
IMHO
That being said, this crap should definitely be voted down and I hope it is.
08-08-2012 | 04:21 AM
#40
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
I think the creditors will then either pressure Horton to get a deal they can quantify and compare against anything Parker can do or then end exclusivity and then Horton is on the ropes. Let's face it, Parker would have quantifiable labor costs across the board for all labor groups still heads and tails cheaper than UAL or Delta (obtained in 10 days of negotiating to boot) and Horton will have little to show to appease lenders, creditors and investors. Yes, he can wave even cheaper pilot costs then the U CLA, but considering the negatives of instability and the possibility those costs could rise to near that of UAL or Delta, I think that won't be something they'll want to touch.
If you were one of the 3 above and were risk averse, where would you bet all your eggs ?
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