Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1323617)

As usual you miss the point entirely. The east has STOLEN for 5 years and that is on the verge if ending. A330 like I told you before I am coming to take. The funny thing about that is, I never had a desire to commute. What I can not do is allow the last five years of usapa action to go unpunished so I will come and take a wide body slot. I am more than certain that many others feel the same way so more slots that they east never would have had to worry about will also be taken. What goes around comes around, remember that jr capt if you are a captain!

WD at AWA

Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1323617)

As usual you miss the point entirely. The east has STOLEN for 5 years and that is on the verge of ending. A330 like I told you before I am coming to take. The funny thing about that is, I never had a desire to commute. What I can not do is allow the last five years of usapa action to go unpunished so I will come and take a wide body slot. I am more than certain that many others feel the same way so more slots that the east never would have had to worry about will also be taken. What goes around comes around, remember that jr capt if you are a captain!

WD at AWA

Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1323614)

If you would pull your head out of your rear, pay attention and listen then you might get somewhere. Oh, I'm sorry, you don't have the skills for that.

Instead of just pulling things out of my rear, I went through the trouble to pull up what my MEC chairman testified to. And a few other things that back up what I've said about it. Enjoy.





“Q. How would you describe the pace of negotiations from, let's
say, 2005 up to the time of the Nicolau Award in May 2007?

• Sluggish.

What do you mean by that?
A. We were clearing what we call in negotiations some of the
underbrush of our contract. Our contract has 29, 30 some
sections in it, each one dealing with a different part of a
pilot's life ranging from sick to what he's going to get paid
to what he's going to get when he retires.
We were clearing out some of the non-multipliers, if
you will, the non-money issues. What was left were the real
important things for our pilots, as they would be for anyone,
your dollars and your days off, and those were not yet agreed
upon.
Q. Did you ever approach the company, US Airways, on these
issues?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. And what, if anything, did you suggest to the company?
A. Prior to the award coming out -- so this would have
probably been about December of 2006, January time frame when
we were in joint negotiations with our brothers and sisters at
America West, the negotiating committee chairman from US
Airways and I, Doug Mowery, approached the company and said we
thought we needed to go away for a period of time before the
award came out, sort of a lockdown situation with the company
to get this thing done so that it would be behind us prior to
the arbitrator making his ruling.

Q. And how did the company respond to that proposal?
A. They were not receptive to that."

"Q. Do you remember what the content of the Kirby proposal was?
A. Yes, I do.
Q. What was it?
A. Well, it was something that was a non-starter. It was
woefully inadequate. I think that's a term -- I don't know if
John was there. I think Mitch Vasin might have been there at
that meeting. Both sides, even after the award came out, we
realized this was not going anywhere, this proposal. It kept
our defined contribution rate for retirement at 10 percent, and
I believe it only raised the current America West rates for
sort of narrow body equipment, only a few dollars into the
future.
It would have still kept us below the -- well below
the average median for airline pilots at the time and for the
life of the contract.
Q. I may not have been paying too close attention. Did you
say that both the East and the West MECs shared that view?
A. Absolutely. We were very concerned at that meeting that
the company leave with no misunderstanding about how we felt
about that proposal. We even rehearsed our, sort of, script
that we would, you know, speak to them when we got back into
session and everybody had sort of a role."





“A. Not exactly. It's actually where we might be the furthest
apart in terms of finances and money. The big pieces get moved
at the end. So you may have -- in terms of sections of the
contract, you may have 90 percent of the sections done. Okay?
But the remaining ten percent of the contractual sections that
remain account for 98 percent of the cost of the contract.”

“I remember Scott's [Kirby-President] words specifically, and he said the
Nicolau Award -- he said let's face it. We were coming to sort
of crossroads here. We weren't getting anywhere with
negotiations. They got the message that we were -- that we
felt that their proposal was woefully inadequate. And he
started off his remarks by saying, let's face it. The Nicolau
Award will never stand as is, that there would have to be some
sort of meeting of the road for this whole process to move on.”



"Q. The May 8, 2007, proposal was coined the Kirby Proposal,
right?

• Yes, sir.

Q. And it took the West rate of pay plus 3 percent, is that
right?
A. About that.
Q. And in your other discussions with the company, had you
received some informal indication that they might be able --
might be willing to go up as high as 7 or 10 percent above the
West rate?

• Nothing in writing.

Q. That wasn't my question. Good answer.
Was there informal discussions, sir, about the area in
which the final contract could wind up?
A. There were informal discussions, yes.
Q. And you have -- I don't remember whether you used
loggerhead or log-jam or what the phrase was, would you agree
with me, sir, that the stall in the forward progress of
negotiations towards a single CBA was because the East Pilots,
the East MEC, would not accept the Nicolau Award?

• Not totally.

Q. Or list?
A. I'm sorry?
Q. I'm sorry. I will try it over. I interrupted you. I
apologize.
Isn't it fair to say that the forward progress towards a single CBA was stalled because the West refused -- excuse
me -- the East refused to accept Nicolau List?

• I believe that was one reason.

Q. Is that the primary reason that the East MEC did not move
forward with joint negotiations?
A. From this pilot, no."

Informal discussion Cacti. That's like the car salesman saying he might be able to get you a break on the paint sealant, but having the manager say "Aw shucks, we already put it on......"


It's all on cactuspilot.com if you like to read it yourself instead of parroting the ridiculous ramblings of your AWPPA board brothers.

Now, here's your homework. What else was inadequate in the Kirby? There was lots, so it shouldn't take you long to answer, if you're honest.

Originally Posted by cactiboss (Post 1323666)

I see, you are 100% sure that the Kirby proposal was it, therefore why bother negotiating? The truth is you can't handle the truth, you have to lie to yourself so you can rationalize what you have done. Facts are facts, you formed a union to steal what an arbitrator didn't give you, you formed a union that represented only the east, you are a joke in the industry and everyone knows it.

Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1323627)

Oh yeah, you never wanted to commute, you never wanted a widebody blah, blah, blah. You lying to me or yourself?

NOTHING HAS BEEN STOLEN, yet. Now if you said that some were trying to steal, then I wouldn't argue with you. I've run into a few that really do want to steal from you. But not most. They see it as keeping what the brought to the table. But that really doesn't matter. It is not stealing because nothing could happen until we have a joint contract. Picture a flow chart where the first box says "Do you have a joint contract, joint SL and joint operating certificate?" If the answer is no, then you stop until you do. Period. It doesn't matter why.

I've told you, but you don't listen, that I disagreed with USAPA's method. I didn't vote for them. I have challenged them on many things, biggest was the C18. But the bottom line is no joint contract-SEPARATE OPERATIONS. PERIOD.

It may be about over, I don't know. I just cannot see it coming together like either the diehard DOH guys or West guys see it. We'll see.

Now relax. The A330 manuals are available on wings if you need something better to do.

And just one more piece of advice. You really should drop the vengeance stuff. I've watched guys try that over here since 1988 with **** poor results.

Originally Posted by flybywire44 (Post 1323661)

Do you post on APC drunk often?

Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1323711)

Ok I am very happy that you stood up against what was clearly an act of aggression against fellow pilots that have basically given their careers so that you can continue to fly!

No I have never had the desire to commute as QOL often trumps chasing big new airplanes who's allure will wear off after just two ocean crossings!

The stealing has cost me and my fellow west pilots tens of thousands of dollars in contract improvements while you stole your way to what you thought would be DOH paradise. All you did in reality is lock senior pilots in at $124/hr many of whom have and will continue to vacate the property paid home depot wages.

Now in your world nothing has been stolen, let me ask you this how many e190 positions are held by west pilots????? How many capts seats are now being held by 3rd listers that were hired in 04 that are JR TO EVERY WEST PILOT????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

The east are thieves plain a simple whose terror stream will be ending in 2013 with west pilots flooding the east bases like a hurricane! Brought this all on yourselves. I tell guys now not to worry because the east are sitting your resv for you as you will walk in as line holders.

Not vengeance at all just making known that the behavior of the last 5 yrs will not be rewarded or forgiven with a simple "we're sorry".

Have already been looking over the 330 manuals BTW how long before you can hold it???:D

WD at AWA

Originally Posted by Wiskey Driver (Post 1323711)

Now in your world nothing has been stolen, let me ask you this how many e190 positions are held by west pilots????? How many capts seats are now being held by 3rd listers that were hired in 04 that are JR TO EVERY WEST PILOT????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????

Originally Posted by R57 relay (Post 1323797)

Really!? Really!? The 757s and E190 seats were handled by agreement and ARBITRATION! West seats are IOUs. Would you like to go against the agreed upon method? What intergrity.

Go educate yourself. And as far as the third listers are involved, go read TA-9.

Education, a wonderful thing.