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Originally Posted by eaglefly
(Post 1775669)
Yes, mine is broken and yours is crystal clear. :cool:
I see no purpose in point-to-point debate with you. We obviously differ in our perceptions. I could go back and cherry pick your posts with no problem to prove my perceptions, but it's not worth the effort to me. Nothing I say to you would sink in anyway and I'm happy where I'm at. I don't need your validation. As for the JCBA, you have little to worry about IMO. It's all but certain APA will agree to a arbitration avoiding deal, so for me it's pointless to discuss it further. Now, tonight you can lie back and close your eyes with a smile once again convinced you've got the world pegged and it's exactly how you see it. For some people, that's the only way they can tolerate life and it's not important for me to strip that from you. :)
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
(Post 1775702)
You still engaging this poser?
PT, the only POSER here is the lackey you see as yourself in the mirror in the morning. |
Originally Posted by PurpleTurtle
(Post 1775702)
You still engaging this poser?
|
No dog in this hunt, and I fully expect folks to look at my post and ignore it, but having just gone through this process and having spent an inordinate amount of time learning all about the "rules" of the game here's a SWAG at some expectations for your situation.
1) The Nic will play no part because of Judge Silver's decree. 2) The most important factor will be Category and Class. 3) Career Expectations will be moot as both sides will argue 'til they are blue in the face to demonstrate how their sides expectations were better and both sides will have compelling arguments. 4) Longevity will get some weight. The biggest question will be how much this plays a factor in the arbs decision. When the UAL SLI was going on I looked at the facts and made a post where I gave a range for myself on the new list. The mid-point of that range was 6681. My final number in the award was 6551. Here is the post . . .
Originally Posted by Sunvox
(Post 1395640)
So any CAL pilots like to gamble? I'll lay 2:1 odds that based on 7563 UAL pilots and 4589 CAL pilots making a list of 12154 . . . . I will be between 6200 and 7100. This puts me next to a 02/05/1996 hire and I am a 04/01/1996. WB-CAP UAL(1557)/CAL(741) list numbers 0 to 2298 NB-CAP UAL(997)/CAL(1220) list numbers 2299 to 4515 WB-FO UAL(2384)/CAL(1250) list numbers 4516 to 8149 NB-FO UAL(2625)/CAL(1378) list numbers 8150 to 12154 if it gets sorted DOH I'm 6281 and if it gets sorted relative seniority I get 7087 Status and category - check Longevity -check Career Expectations - we agree to disagree, but a draw at best and has never ever ever been used to override status and category in the first part of the list even in USAir's case where arguably they were on the verge of liquidation, and UAL had profit in the last quarter announced before the merger and CAL did not so nah nah my dog's bigger and meaner than your dog. If someone wants a close guess of how they will end up here are my recommended steps. 1) Make a list of planes and pilots that existed the day the merger was announced at AA/East/West. 2) Create however many categories you think are reasonable based on the payscales in existence at that time: more payscales=more bands at category and class (given the West's top plane is a 757 I would bet on 6 categories: WBC LNBC NBC WBFO LNBFO NBFO) 3) Count the positions at each outfit in each category and merge the lists based on DOH for one run and straight percentage for the other list. 4) Your answer will be somewhere in between the two. BUT You will NEVER impact this process with bickering online nor will your ultimate seat and progression change dramatically as a result of the SLI. What will change your life immediately is your JCBA. I realize this is impossible, but the single most important argument you should be having is how much to demand from the JCBA. You have Parker over a barrel that is if you can speak with a unified voice. The opportunity to improve your future dramatically is here right NOW. At UAL we fought bitterly and one side held the JCBA ransom to try and improve their standing and as a result we ended up with a less than ideal JCBA. Don't make our mistake. Write your reps and tell them to fight for the best and quickest JCBA you can get! |
Originally Posted by Sunvox
(Post 1778548)
No dog in this hunt, and I fully expect folks to look at my post and ignore it, but having just gone through this process and having spent an inordinate amount of time learning all about the "rules" of the game here's a SWAG at some expectations for your situation.
1) The Nic will play no part because of Judge Silver's decree. 2) The most important factor will be Category and Class. 3) Career Expectations will be moot as both sides will argue 'til they are blue in the face to demonstrate how their sides expectations were better and both sides will have compelling arguments. 4) Longevity will get some weight. The biggest question will be how much this plays a factor in the arbs decision. When the UAL SLI was going on I looked at the facts and made a post where I gave a range for myself on the new list. The mid-point of that range was 6681. My final number in the award was 6551. Here is the post . . . If someone wants a close guess of how they will end up here are my recommended steps. 1) Make a list of planes and pilots that existed the day the merger was announced at AA/East/West. 2) Create however many categories you think are reasonable based on the payscales in existence at that time: more payscales=more bands at category and class (given the West's top plane is a 757 I would bet on 6 categories: WBC LNBC NBC WBFO LNBFO NBFO) 3) Count the positions at each outfit in each category and merge the lists based on DOH for one run and straight percentage for the other list. 4) Your answer will be somewhere in between the two. BUT You will NEVER impact this process with bickering online nor will your ultimate seat and progression change dramatically as a result of the SLI. What will change your life immediately is your JCBA. I realize this is impossible, but the single most important argument you should be having is how much to demand from the JCBA. You have Parker over a barrel that is if you can speak with a unified voice. The opportunity to improve your future dramatically is here right NOW. At UAL we fought bitterly and one side held the JCBA ransom to try and improve their standing and as a result we ended up with a less than ideal JCBA. Don't make our mistake. Write your reps and tell them to fight for the best and quickest JCBA you can get! I'm not sure we have Parker over a barrel though. The time to put him over it was during the merger negotiations, when he really wanted something. The arbitration backstop was huge for the company. A lot of guys think we have more leverage and I hope they are correct and I'm wrong on that one. Just have to let the negotiating committee do their job. Thanks for the input. |
Originally Posted by Sunvox
(Post 1778548)
No dog in this hunt, and I fully expect folks to look at my post and ignore it, but having just gone through this process and having spent an inordinate amount of time learning all about the "rules" of the game here's a SWAG at some expectations for your situation.
1) The Nic will play no part because of Judge Silver's decree. 2) The most important factor will be Category and Class. 3) Career Expectations will be moot as both sides will argue 'til they are blue in the face to demonstrate how their sides expectations were better and both sides will have compelling arguments. 4) Longevity will get some weight. The biggest question will be how much this plays a factor in the arbs decision. When the UAL SLI was going on I looked at the facts and made a post where I gave a range for myself on the new list. The mid-point of that range was 6681. My final number in the award was 6551. Here is the post . . . If someone wants a close guess of how they will end up here are my recommended steps. 1) Make a list of planes and pilots that existed the day the merger was announced at AA/East/West. 2) Create however many categories you think are reasonable based on the payscales in existence at that time: more payscales=more bands at category and class (given the West's top plane is a 757 I would bet on 6 categories: WBC LNBC NBC WBFO LNBFO NBFO) 3) Count the positions at each outfit in each category and merge the lists based on DOH for one run and straight percentage for the other list. 4) Your answer will be somewhere in between the two. The APA will be hamstrung by their fear of lawsuits. The infighting will continue for many years to come while the West pilots tumble into a heightened state of agitation and AAL will have all the the pilots they could ever want to fly their aircraft at competitive rates against the other big three (UAL, DAL and SWA). AAL grows to drive industry wages down. BUT You will NEVER impact this process with bickering online nor will your ultimate seat and progression change dramatically as a result of the SLI. What will change your life immediately is your JCBA. I realize this is impossible, but the single most important argument you should be having is how much to demand from the JCBA. You have Parker over a barrel that is if you can speak with a unified voice. The opportunity to improve your future dramatically is here right NOW. At UAL we fought bitterly and one side held the JCBA ransom to try and improve their standing and as a result we ended up with a less than ideal JCBA. Don't make our mistake. Write your reps and tell them to fight for the best and quickest JCBA you can get! We CAN'T speak with a unified voice. Best and quickest are antithetical to this group. Logical is NOT and APA trait. Thanks for the insight. |
Lets not forget that USAPA did not have resources to properly analyze the MOU as they were to busy fighting with the West.
So now West loses Nic and, along with East, fails to get the best JCBA result. :( |
Originally Posted by flybywire44
(Post 1778644)
Lets not forget that USAPA did not have resources to properly analyze the MOU as they were to busy fighting with the West.
So now West loses Nic and, along with East, fails to get the best JCBA result. :( USAPA was already fighting with the West for years and it certainly seems nothing has changed. The West keeps suing and when they LOSE their argument before the PAB they will continue to sue the Company and the APA and when they don't win there they'll do what they did a few years ago and report the APA pilots for any job actions (or at a minimum they simply won't go along) along with failure to honor a strike. That's the way it will be. As the West will say...."Insha'Allah". |
3 way seniority integration-Fire Away
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1778664)
Actually, it WASN'T the resources but the way resources were deployed. The President wanted a deal and the NAC wasn't staffed in a way that was conducive to a path for an MOU so the removal of two of the negotiators, the addition of two that the President wanted along with the President negotiating directly with the Company effectuated the MOU (II) that sent the CBA out to the rank and file.
USAPA was already fighting with the West for years and it certainly seems nothing has changed. The West keeps suing and when they LOSE their argument before the PAB they will continue to sue the Company and the APA and when they don't win there they'll do what they did a few years ago and report the APA pilots for any job actions (or at a minimum they simply won't go along) along with failure to honor a strike. That's the way it will be. As the West will say...."Insha'Allah". I refuse to see how USAPA task loading with West legal action didn't affect the unions attention span. I agree the union has the resources, but the attention span of leadership was not fully available for JCBA. West pilots hurt themselves in this area by extension. |
Originally Posted by flybywire44
(Post 1778805)
I refuse to see how USAPA task loading with West legal action didn't affect the unions attention span.
I agree the union has the resources, but the attention span of leadership was not fully available for JCBA. West pilots hurt themselves in this area by extension. As far as JCBA (as per MOU II) USAPA wasn't the ONLY one dancing to the tune. So was APA whose BOD voted for it (the MOU) and USAPA rank and file. They GOT what they wanted and the JCBA WILL be fully available either through the current negotiations OR through arbitration. The JCBA didn't come BEFORE the MOU, it is a result OF the MOU and it is being negotiated assuredly. But make no mistake, we'll get a JCBA either through negotiations OR through arbitration. Back to the seniority integration here is MY prediction: The West do not have legal standing to participant status and The US Airways pilots can PROVE that their contribution to the survival of American Airlines and the merger with US Airways thereof was significant and consequently the US Airways pilots as of the CN date will have significant positional recognition in relation to the APA pilots in the merged seniority list. |
Originally Posted by Route66
(Post 1778585)
Most of what you have revealed is true for ALPA merger policy. While there "seems" the perception of ALPA policy is fair and equitable that definition carries different meaning than fair and equitable under MB. . . .
In short you're longevity within a few months carried the day because the method used was more longevity than ratio. I read the award. . . . Thanks for the insight. A few minor nit-noids . . . 1) Although true the Mccaskill-Bond Statute uses the Allegheny-Mohawk Labor Protective Provisions which do not include specifics like the ALPA policy, it does use the same words "fair and equitable" and given Arbitrator Eischen's long history I am confident that Category and Class will carry the day. 2) I'm not sure I agree with your characterization of the UAL SLI with regards to longevity. The list was created using a mathematical sorting algorithm provided by UAL-ALPA. In the original UAL proposed ISL I was 500 numbers higher than I ended up. The reason this happened was because the original list was created with a 50/50 weight wherein Category and Class was equal to longevity, but in the final award the arbitrators used the tool to make the ratio 65/35 where longevity accounted for only 35% of the final result. This resulted in my losing over 500 numbers and instead of being mixed with '96 hires I was mixed with '98 hires. But, like I said, really just nit-noid stuff. It's a shame most folks have such a pessimistic outlook 'cuz I think this could be good for everybody if the groups could somehow get it over and done with quickly. The sooner this is behind you the better for your pilot careers or so it seems to me. And, you're welcome! It's all just entertainment on the inter-webs anyways and doesn't mean a thing in real life :D |
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