PhantomHawk

There are quite a few alleged issues with one of those pilots, as well. Training issues as well as integrity issues. Allegedly.

balljet

I am really disturbed and disgusted by all you who are jumping to conclusions and throwing these guys (or guy) under the bus.

There are no official facts or conclusions made yet, but you already are all condemning this guys skill or lack there of.

Many things you say are true and have happened throughout the hiring cycle, when pilots were in demand. Training has to be completed to a high standard, or safety will be compromised. if this happens, it needs to be reported and stopped.

However in regards to this Atlas crash, the FO had plenty of time and presumably passed his check ride and was an operating qualified crew member.

If indeed this scenario turns out to be what happened, we need to ask how this happened.
You can not convince me that training or experience alone was at fault, even my grandmother would realize when pointing at the ground with rockets attached that something ain't quite right!

If the pilot froze and locked the controls in a death grip, why?

Was he exhausted?
Was he mentally affected by certain circumstances.
Was he depressed?
Was he at the end of his rope?
Was their issues in his life, the cockpit environment, his sleeping habits?
etc..etc..

We as professionals need to start understanding when we sign that release that we are fit to fly that means something..
Business is just that and will not protect us from our own follies.

Diesel8

I held off posting on this thread, for a long while.

First off, may those affected in this crash rest in peace.

The following is a bit of opinion, and in no way meant to impugn the character of anyone. It is an observation.

Experience:

Things have changed dramatically in the last 10+ years in gaining flight experience.

4000 hours TT represented a lot more actual flying experience back in the old days than those 4000 hours mean today.

It used to be that you built your time instructing, flying cargo, charter, anything that you could do just to get to at least 1200 hours so that you could go to work for an IFR 135 operation, where you would build more experience. This was all done in aircraft that did not have a lot of automation. You actually flew the aircraft, as such building up a level of airmanship. The "commuters" as they were called were flying turboprops that had no autopilots at all.

So, what we have now is people with minimal flight experience getting into heavily automated jet aircraft. Building flight experience now is usually and nearly exclusively behind an autopilot. There is no bank of actual "flying" experience or development of airmanship. What you have now is not pilots, but system operators.

Everything is fine in this scenario until you have a breakdown of the "system" (aircraft automation). If you do not have the requisite skills to actually fly the aircraft, the results can be dramatic. The lack of that bank of knowledge, that real world flying experience can be a severe detriment in its own right. This is what we are seeing more and more of now.

It gives me deep concern.

742Dash

Just as we have pilot certificates, dispatcher certificates and so forth there ought to be a "senior management certificate", and Part 119 should be modified to require it for all senior managers.

It does not have to be hard to get, perhaps just an oral exam covering operational control. But it would give the FAA something to take action against in cases like this. Something to suspend or revoke, just like the certificates that the worker bees in aviation have to hold.

All of the responsibility has been pushed so far down the organization that Part 119 positions are just sacrificial lambs, while the suits who control everything are unaccountable.

Jurassic Jet

135/121 Chief Pilots and DOs do have certificate responsibility. The FAA can take action against their ATP certificates for their actions at the air carrier.

Adlerdriver

Well said Diesel8. So well that I had to use your post to make a point in the safety section discussing the Egypt 737 Max - Just FYI.

kevbo

Losing a certificate doesn't affect your paycheck once you're in management. What good is an ATP if you don't fly?

kevbo

In the past, Delta Tech-ops rarely hired anyone over 20.

742Dash

My point was that senior management needs to be subject to certificate action. The CEOs and COOs. The Chief Pilots and DOs are little fish these days, and have little real authority in a large operation.

lowcountryflyer

Not true. The FAA can take action against the air carrier certificate for FAR violations but not airman certificate action against management members.