Originally Posted by ACMIguy

Here’s my 777 training experience.

This was my 9th Part 121 training program. 6 airlines. 4 Boeing type ratings and 2 RJ type ratings over 29 years of flying.

I have not failed any checkrides and I didn’t fail the 777 checkride either. In fact, I scored mostly “4,s” in my training record with nothing but praise in the comments sections. I passed both my oral and type ride with no issues.

The experience however, was miserable. 10 SITs were useless. The instructor literally sat there reading the slides off the monitor in the briefing room. His systems knowledge was abysmal. He was used to training new hires and I found myself correcting him multiple times or just keeping my mouth shut to get along. Yes, 10 SITs is a lot. But when you spend the first 5 of them practicing how to use HDG SEL and V/S you don’t get much out of them.

I actually really liked my FFS instructor who was a contractor. But as such, he wasn’t immersed in the Atlas (Southern) way of doing things. We couldn’t get the sim to properly fly a NON-ILS the entire 8 FFS sessions minus two times. Going through the 747 program here many years ago you could basically teach the airplane by the end of ground school. It was mostly run by ex USAF pilots. The 767 program had an absolutely excellent ground school instructor (Caesar). In both of those programs you trained hard and checked easy. The type ride itself was cake compared to the pre-rating ride. It’s the exact opposite on the 777. My 767 captain upgrade checkride was 1 hr 39 minutes. My 777 type rating was 3 hrs. 10 minutes. It “feels” as if the DE’s go out of their way to overload you and are looking for reasons/excuses to fail you. One particular DE actually told me he enjoys watching guys reach their breaking point.

During UPRT, he gave me a 20 knot gusting wind, which doesn’t sound bad…but he programmed it as a shifting wind. So it would suddenly shift from a 20 knot left crosswind to an immediate 20 knot right crosswind as soon as you compensated for it. It made the aircraft almost uncontrollable.
The other issue I had was the lack of consistency among the instructors. One would give you his technique which differed from the FCOM and then the next would tell you that’s all wrong and teach you his technique which was still different from the FCOM.

I knew going in that you were on your own as far as obtaining the knowledge and I planned accordingly, studying months ahead of showing up in Miami. But the books are extremely watered down and you have to piece a profile together from multiple sources. For example, the 767 FCOM has the SMAC which is excellent. A one stop shop for all your maneuvers. A v1 cut is spelled out in 9 pages, from the description and philosophy of it to the step by step script on how they want you to fly the procedure. You wont find that in the 777 books. You have to reference the FCOM, the FCTM and the QRH to obtain the info and piece together your own script. There isn’t one published.

They also have this outdated “must memorize every number” regional airline B.S. way of doing things. They will ask you every weight for both models during the oral. So that’s 10 sets of 6 digit numbers. Why? Just why? Airlines stopped doing that years ago.

The second to last sim was Landings training. The instructor put us on a 5 mile final at 320 knots and gave us a cargo fire and told us if we didn’t get the airplane on the ground we were going to die so “make it happen”. Which we both were able to. Then he lowered the sim and said we were good to go. One landing. That was it. During ‘Landings” training. And an unstablized one at that. Later, I checked in AIMS and he had logged 9 landings for me. Mind you, not only is this illegal….but my landing currency was based off of it. Got nothing out of it.

So, for you all you guys blathering on about “If you can’t get through the 777 training program you shouldn’t be here to begin with”…go pound sand. I’ve been here 15 years and I can absolutely tell you, this program is dysfunctional.

Originally Posted by ACMIguy

Here’s my 777 training experience.

This was my 9th Part 121 training program. 6 airlines. 4 Boeing type ratings and 2 RJ type ratings over 29 years of flying.

I have not failed any checkrides and I didn’t fail the 777 checkride either. In fact, I scored mostly “4,s” in my training record with nothing but praise in the comments sections. I passed both my oral and type ride with no issues.

The experience however, was miserable. 10 SITs were useless. The instructor literally sat there reading the slides off the monitor in the briefing room. His systems knowledge was abysmal. He was used to training new hires and I found myself correcting him multiple times or just keeping my mouth shut to get along. Yes, 10 SITs is a lot. But when you spend the first 5 of them practicing how to use HDG SEL and V/S you don’t get much out of them.

I actually really liked my FFS instructor who was a contractor. But as such, he wasn’t immersed in the Atlas (Southern) way of doing things. We couldn’t get the sim to properly fly a NON-ILS the entire 8 FFS sessions minus two times. Going through the 747 program here many years ago you could basically teach the airplane by the end of ground school. It was mostly run by ex USAF pilots. The 767 program had an absolutely excellent ground school instructor (Caesar). In both of those programs you trained hard and checked easy. The type ride itself was cake compared to the pre-rating ride. It’s the exact opposite on the 777. My 767 captain upgrade checkride was 1 hr 39 minutes. My 777 type rating was 3 hrs. 10 minutes. It “feels” as if the DE’s go out of their way to overload you and are looking for reasons/excuses to fail you. One particular DE actually told me he enjoys watching guys reach their breaking point.

During UPRT, he gave me a 20 knot gusting wind, which doesn’t sound bad…but he programmed it as a shifting wind. So it would suddenly shift from a 20 knot left crosswind to an immediate 20 knot right crosswind as soon as you compensated for it. It made the aircraft almost uncontrollable.
The other issue I had was the lack of consistency among the instructors. One would give you his technique which differed from the FCOM and then the next would tell you that’s all wrong and teach you his technique which was still different from the FCOM.

I knew going in that you were on your own as far as obtaining the knowledge and I planned accordingly, studying months ahead of showing up in Miami. But the books are extremely watered down and you have to piece a profile together from multiple sources. For example, the 767 FCOM has the SMAC which is excellent. A one stop shop for all your maneuvers. A v1 cut is spelled out in 9 pages, from the description and philosophy of it to the step by step script on how they want you to fly the procedure. You wont find that in the 777 books. You have to reference the FCOM, the FCTM and the QRH to obtain the info and piece together your own script. There isn’t one published.

They also have this outdated “must memorize every number” regional airline B.S. way of doing things. They will ask you every weight for both models during the oral. So that’s 10 sets of 6 digit numbers. Why? Just why? Airlines stopped doing that years ago.

The second to last sim was Landings training. The instructor put us on a 5 mile final at 320 knots and gave us a cargo fire and told us if we didn’t get the airplane on the ground we were going to die so “make it happen”. Which we both were able to. Then he lowered the sim and said we were good to go. One landing. That was it. During ‘Landings” training. And an unstablized one at that. Later, I checked in AIMS and he had logged 9 landings for me. Mind you, not only is this illegal….but my landing currency was based off of it. Got nothing out of it.

So, for you all you guys blathering on about “If you can’t get through the 777 training program you shouldn’t be here to begin with”…go pound sand. I’ve been here 15 years and I can absolutely tell you, this program is dysfunctional.

Originally Posted by Elevation

There's not a reference for call outs and profiles for a V1 cut? Really?

Originally Posted by Rightseater73

This guy is full of it. With experience as a 767 Evaluator, 1:39 minutes for a type ride means you cut corners and did not complete ALLthe maneuvers spelled out in the ACS. The 777 V1 cut is in the QRH with a pretty picture. FCTM does a great job explaining the maneuver. He must need it S P E L L E D out for him.

Is the program perfect? Nope. Will you find differences between instructors, probably. But most instructors on the fleet are very good. Being associated with the program since the Southern/Boeing days, I can tell you the program is always evolving for the better. There is a great group of guys that dedicate time to fix inconsistencies and improve the program. A few years ago when we saw a wave on limited experience new hires there was minimal issues getting through the program. Now we get the guys coming over from other fleets with their "techniques and habits" and all of a sudden there are plenty of issues. Rubber band for INT switch, turning off AT switches at end of flight, Not knowing how to fly a VNAV approach, are a few of the issues and on top of that a crappy attitude.

Originally Posted by Atlasvet

I understand most of your points and always felt the 777 program was doing fine. I only ever flew the 747 and believe there could be issues with some coming over.

But I am curious what you find disturbing about using a rubber band on the INT switch, I always found it handy if you wanted to chat.

Originally Posted by Birdsmash

Rubber bands, besides not being approved by the manufacturer, start a path down the slippery slope of non-compliance. What seems like a small thing carries over to other behaviors to the point of normalization of deviance. If you wouldn’t do it with the FAA watching, you shouldn’t do it in other daily line ops. It’s as simple as that.

Originally Posted by TiredSoul

Give me a break.
The 77 is one giant pile of technique that somehow made it into “procedure”.
Then you ask for a reference or guidance and nobody knows who or when or why they started doing it.
Flying with one earcup of your headset is re-tah-ded in 2025.
If you can keep the intercom on continuously with the joke switch you can do it with a rubber band.
Same thing end of story.
Atlas bought a hillbilly bankrupt airline in 2016 and should have purged the entire training department including DE’s.
They didn’t so they still teach hillbilly procedures and grade you on technique.
Cooperate or you don’t graduate.
Most LcA’s are so unstandardized it’s not even funny not to mention look like homeless people in and out of uniform.
Carry on truckin’
Toot toot

Originally Posted by Birdsmash

The entire fleet has locking INT switches on the yoke. If the 1st OBS wants to chat all they need to do is lean forward and push the INT switches on their ACP. It can be a bit more challenging for the 2nd OBS depending on how that position is equipped on that tail#. Rubber bands, besides not being approved by the manufacturer, start a path down the slippery slope of non-compliance. What seems like a small thing carries over to other behaviors to the point of normalization of deviance. If you wouldn’t do it with the FAA watching, you shouldn’t do it in other daily line ops. It’s as simple as that.

Originally Posted by rickair7777

SWA and legacies use rubber bands, have for a very long time, and still do on the few older birds left. I don't think the FAA cares.

Originally Posted by Birdsmash

Just because someone else is doing it makes it ok? Come on man. Our safety system drove a fleet upgrade to locking INT switches. Perhaps other airlines should make this small modification that’s done correctly with OEM and regulatory approval? It’s not difficult or that expensive.