Was just told by a POI at a company I was trying to get hired on with that the last 700 hours in my logbook are not loggable and I am now back at 750 Total time. 4 years wasted.

Company has op specs that authorize use of autopilot in lieu of sic, but only if captain has taken the appropriate checkride. Our captains never recieved that specific check. So in my opinion, an SIC was required. He claims that checkride or not, no SIC is required because of the op spec. Our FSDO claims that I am right. But if every job i try to get on at has a POI or FSDO with the same opinion as this clown, I am back at square one. What the hell do i do now?

 

Not sure why you were talking to the POI at a company you are trying to get hired at.

It's hard to judge the situation without reading the opspec in question but if it's as you described you may be in a bind in that you have to prove a negative...that all the captains you flew with did NOT have that qualification.

Normally someone with your kind of flight time would just carry that OPSPEC around in their hip pocket in case they get asked. What you probably also need is a letter from your employer stating that in accordance with their OPSPEC you were required as an SIC, and explaining exactly how that was derived from the OPSPEC.

Without that letter, you are at risk of getting rejected from any interview if you present SIC time in a single-pilot airplane. You might even get flagged for fraudulent flight time, in which case you will never be invited back even when you meet the mins.

Hope you get it sorted out.

 

And really, regardless of what you can say (or prove for that matter), some employers just flat out won't take SIC time in a single pilot airplane, regardless of what your company was or was not certified for in the past.

But like rickair said, a nice letter from someone up the chain in your former company would go a long way.

I have a couple hundred hours of King Air/CJ time from a 135 department. I logged quite a bit initially as SIC until I found out that almost no one will take it. I never put it on a resume and noted it in my logbook and subtracted the time. Never had a problem with any of the interviews I went to since it was removed.

 

In my experience, most POI's are idiots that couldn't get a job as a pilot. Most have a chip on their shoulder and take it out on pilots for the company they inspect. Ignore them. Avoid them.

 

Well I got to talk to my old company's check airman. He claims that our captains have always been checked on the autopilot. So obviously, I can not log SIC time in this aircraft. However he does claim that even under part 135 if I am sole manipulator of teh conrols, it can be logged as PIC (apparently there is a difference in acting as PIC and logging PIC). I do know for a fact that all the part 91 empty legs that I fly, I can log as PIC. He then went on to claim that I can log all my time in the aircaft as total time, it doesnt have to be PIC or SIC. It just seems wierd that I cant log it, when the company required me to be there, and paid me quite well for doing so. I got a 135.293 ride once a year and a 61.57 ride once a year.

Help me fix my logbook....

The worst part is, if this stuff isnt loggable, I go from being within months of taking an ATP checkride to having less than 1000 hours and no longer hireable for anyone... and my job wont be around much longer, so I may be out of aviation for good.

 

I can't help with the logbook issues, but I think you may be being a bit over dramatic. It sounds like you have good experience and you are not too far from the next step in your career. It also sounds like you are willing to make a move to get to the regionals, so you could use that eagerness to find another king air operator for six months to a year. At a minimum do some instruction, survey, aerial photography, etc. to get yourself at least up to 1200 at which point you could do 135 freight.

I'm telling you this because I went through a similar route. I'm at FedEx now but it took a while. Patience, determination, reward. Do what you have to.

 

Is it anything like how Cape Air operates? I saw you posted in that FO thread, and I addressed it there but I don't mind saying it again.

Cape Air is required to have two-person crews. However, we have a waiver saying that we can use an autopilot in lieu of an actual FO. On two-pilot flights, even with a functional autopilot, we do NOT excersise that waiver, making the FO a required crew member. Just because we CAN use that waiver doesn't mean we MUST use it. We are not required to use the autopilot instead of a FO, even if it's working, but we CAN. We just don't when we have a FO. We choose when to exercise the waiver.

That's why Cape Air FOs can log time on any flight they fly, working autopilot or not. Again, it's an optional WAIVER, not a requirement.

So, if your company operates under the same principles that we do, that's how I'd present it.

 

Well said. This is how most 135 charter operators choose to operate as well. I logged several hundred hours this way and never had an issue with it during numerous airline interviews, as well as my ATP checkride.

 

There's nothing which says that you cannot log total time, but there is no regulatory allowance for logging total time which is not PIC, SIC, FE, dual received, etc.

Personally I consider that to be logging "airplane ride" time and when employers ask for total time they will generally expect that all of it falls into one of the other categories. I would be careful logging only total time.

It looks like this all hinges on the semantics of whether the use of an SIC waives the autopilot authorization. There is no obvious right answer...it is in the eye of the beholder, although it sounds like other folks have been able to use SIC time under the same conditions.

Maybe you need to find a FSDO which will accept that time for an ATP ride...then do your ATP in their jurisdiction. Make sure you discuss this with the examiner in advance so there are no recriminations later. That should validate the flight time at least for federal purposes. Then it will be up to employers.

If you REALLY want to nail this down with certainty, write a letter to the FAA Chief Counsel, including all of the details. He should render a formal opinion. But if he doesn't give the answer you want, there will be a lot of ex-135 FO's looking to find you...

 

The "right" answer is what is spelled out in the regs:

There it is. There's no need to get the FSDO involved. It's 100% legit. Sure, you MAY operate with an autopilot instead of an SIC... but you don't NEED to. There's no requirement there, it doesn't say "a person SHALL operate an aircraft without a second in command, if it is equipped with an operative approved autopilot system" or "a person MUST operate an aircraft without a second in command, if it is equipped with an operative approved autopilot system." Yes, it says IFR, but I did all my 135 flights on IFR flight plans (it's so much easier that way!), so that part didn't matter to me and my FOs. HOWEVER: If your company's Op Specs specifically state that an SIC is required for all flights, IFR or VFR, then that becomes ruling and you're able to log SIC even on VFR flights. Cape Air's Op Specs don't say that, but maybe yours do.

Moving on... You're not REQUIRED to use the autopilot in lieu of an SIC, but you can if you want. You can choose NOT to use the autopilot in lieu of an SIC, and that's why you can log SIC time. If you're NOT using the autopilot in lieu of an SIC, then the SIC is a required crewmember.

There's no semantics about it, Rick, it's right there in gray and gray :). BTW, where are the smilies? I'd have put one there...

Anyway, there's no need to convince a FSDO. The time is 100% loggable towards your ATP. It's legitimate SIC time per 135.101. Granted, the powers that be at the new company CAN pick and choose what time they like and what time they don't like.

For example, some airlines only count PIC time as time when you actually signed for the aircraft, so your part 91 legs wouldn't count as PIC as far as they're concerned. Yes, you were sole manipulator, but you didn't sign for the plane. It's still legal PIC per the FARs, and you still log it.