Should we be concerned for our future?
02-23-2022, 09:51 AM
#111
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Posts: 1,788
Originally Posted by Andy
You're looking at things on a different timeline than Russian leadership. They've been slowly regaining land they lost control of three and a half decades ago.
Less than a century ago, Germany attempted to conquer Russia.
Two centuries ago, France attempted to conquer Russia.
A couple of decades before that, Sweden initiated a war on Russia.
Before that, the Ottoman Empire attacked Russia.
And so on...
Again, depends on one's timeline. I posit that this buffer zone from the west is viewed in terms of centuries rather than years or decades.
Less than a century ago, Germany attempted to conquer Russia.
Two centuries ago, France attempted to conquer Russia.
A couple of decades before that, Sweden initiated a war on Russia.
Before that, the Ottoman Empire attacked Russia.
And so on...
Again, depends on one's timeline. I posit that this buffer zone from the west is viewed in terms of centuries rather than years or decades.
02-23-2022, 10:23 AM
#112
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Originally Posted by Extenda
Interesting. But the idea of any type of Western European military “aggression” towards the Soviet Union post USSR breakup is totally fabricated, no?
02-23-2022, 10:27 AM
#113
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Originally Posted by FNGFO
Thats typical Russian paranoia. NATO combined (minus the US) couldn’t begin to contemplate mounting a ground offensive in Europe. China, otoh, would be my main concern if I were them. But preparing for last wars is a thing.
But short-term, they both have a strong mutual interest in "sovereignty" (ie they can do what they want, to who they want without external interference) and opposition to the liberal west. They're natural enemies with temporary common interests.
02-23-2022, 10:32 AM
#114
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Originally Posted by ELAC321
Wow what a misleading chart. Sorting it by total spending instead of % of GDP. Yeah let's compare the US straight spending to countries that are worth less than a lot of US singular companies.
Next I want you to show the same chart of US citizens paying taxes sorted by income bracket then we can complain poverty stricken people aren't paying their fair share.
Next I want you to show the same chart of US citizens paying taxes sorted by income bracket then we can complain poverty stricken people aren't paying their fair share.
What part of % of GDP did you not get?
Perhaps you should actually LOOK AT the chart before criticizing it?
02-23-2022, 10:39 AM
#115
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Posts: 2,353
Originally Posted by Andy
Why spend 2% when they know that the US will supply all of the needed defense?
This was the constant refrain at SHAPE from the AOs and the MILDEL in Brussels. They were happy to exercise, but they never had the expectation that they would really do anything. That would fall squarely on the shoulders of the US.
02-23-2022, 10:39 AM
#116
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Originally Posted by ELAC321
Wow what a misleading chart. Sorting it by total spending instead of % of GDP. Yeah let's compare the US straight spending to countries that are worth less than a lot of US singular companies.
Next I want you to show the same chart of US citizens paying taxes sorted by income bracket then we can complain poverty stricken people aren't paying their fair share.
Next I want you to show the same chart of US citizens paying taxes sorted by income bracket then we can complain poverty stricken people aren't paying their fair share.
Poor people obviously don't pay their fare share... they use at least the same or typically more public resources but pay less.
A small NATO state costs less to defend than a geographically larger one, in general and hypothetically. That's as fair as you can make it. Lots of variables there since you don't know where the attack will come from or how it will progress. Also the defense of the more western states is predicated on holding the line in the eastern states. You could fight and win a lengthy conflict in a couple of eastern states but that doesn't mean those states should foot the entire bill.
02-23-2022, 10:41 AM
#117
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Posts: 4,672
Originally Posted by Andy
Ok. it was a bit vague. Not sure if you were referring to JFK, Trump, or Biden administration.
I didn't follow those hearings. Did anyone else on the NSC testify?
I didn't follow those hearings. Did anyone else on the NSC testify?
But the JCS as well as the US/NATO commander had made recs to the admin regarding Afghanistan, they were either not even heard and/or dismissed.
Those items had been “working” up to that point as far as keeping the place somewhat calm, relatively.
02-23-2022, 10:41 AM
#118
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Posts: 11,504
20th and 21st century wars in Europe:
UN troops on their way up "Sniper Alley" in Sarajevo during the Bosnian War
A Russian helicopter downed by Chechen militants, during the First Chechen War
The Russian Army's Vostok Battalion in South Ossetia- 1903 Ilinden Uprising
- 1904–1908 Macedonian Struggle
- 1905 Łódź insurrection
- 1907 1907 Romanian Peasants' Revolt
- 1910 Albanian Revolt of 1910
- 1911–1912 Italo-Turkish War
- 1912–1913 Balkan Wars
- 1912–1913 First Balkan War
- 1913 Second Balkan War
- 1914 Peasant Revolt in Albania
- 1914–1918 World War I
- 1916 Easter Rising
- 1917–1921 Russian Civil War
- 1917–1921 Ukrainian–Soviet War
- 1918 Georgian–Armenian War
- 1918 Georgian-Turkish War
- 1918 Finnish Civil War
- 1918 Polish-Czech war for Teschen Silesia
- 1918–1919 Georgian-Russian conflict over Sochi
- 1918–1919 Polish-Ukrainian War
- 1918–1919 Greater Poland Uprising
- 1918–1920 Estonian Liberation War
- 1918–1920 Latvian War of Independence
- 1919 Hungarian–Romanian War of 1919
- 1919 Christmas Uprising
- 1919–1922 Greco–Turkish War
- 1919–1923 Turkish War of Independence
- 1919–1920 Czechoslovakia-Hungary War
- 1919–1921 Silesian Uprisings
- 1919–1921 Polish-Soviet War
- 1919–1922 Irish War of Independence
- 1920 Polish–Lithuanian War
- 1920 Vlora War
- 1921 Georgian-Russian War
- 1921 Uprising in West Hungary
- 1922–1923 Irish Civil War
- 1924 Georgian Uprising against Soviet Union
- 1934 Asturian miners' strike of 1934
- 1934 Austrian Civil War
- 1936–1939 Spanish Civil War
- 1939 Slovak-Hungarian War
- 1939 Occupation of Zakarpattia Oblast by Hungary
- 1939–1940 Winter War(Soviet invasion of Finland)
- 1939–1945 World War II
- 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland
- 1939–1940 Winter War
- 1940–1941 Greco-Italian War
- 1941–1945 Soviet-German war
- 1941–1944 Continuation War
- 1944 Slovak National Uprising
- 1944–1956 Guerilla war in the Baltic states
- 1945–1949 Greek Civil War
- 1953 Uprising in East Germany
- 1956 Uprising in Poznań
- 1956 Hungarian Revolution
- 1956–1962 Operation Harvest
- 1958 First Cod War
- 1959–2011 Basque Conflict
- 1968 Soviet invasion of Czechoslovakia
- 1968–1998 The Troubles
- 1970–1984 Unrest in Italy
- 1972–1973 Second Cod War
- 1974 Turkish invasion of Cyprus
- 1975-1976 Third Cod War
- 1988–1994 Nagorno-Karabakh War
- 1989 Romanian Revolution
- 1991 Ten-Day War
- 1991–1992 Georgian war against Russo-Ossetian alliance
- 1991–1993 Georgian Civil War
- 1991–1995 Croatian War of Independence
- 1992 War of Transnistria
- 1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict
- 1992–1993 First Georgian war against Russo-Abkhazian alliance
- 1992–1995 Bosnian War
- 1993 Cherbourg incident
- 1993 Russian constitutional crisis
- 1994–1996 First Chechen War
- 1997 Unrest in Albania
- 1998–1999 Kosovo War
- 1998–present Dissident Irish Republican campaign
- 1998 Second Georgian war against Russian-Abkhazian alliance
- 1999 Dagestan War
- 1999–2009 Second Chechen War
- 1999–2001 Insurgency in the Preševo Valley
21st century
- 2001 Insurgency in the Republic of Macedonia
- 2002 Perejil Island crisis
- 2004 Unrest in Kosovo
- 2004 Georgia, Adjara crisis
- 2006 Georgia, Kodori crisis
- 2007–present Civil war in Ingushetia
- 2008 Unrest in Kosovo
- 2008 Russia–Georgia war
- 2009–present Insurgency in the North Caucasus
- 2011–present North Kosovo crisis
So how did all of this become OUR responsibility?
02-23-2022, 10:48 AM
#119
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Posts: 4,672
That’s a bold strategy cotton, let’s see how it works out for him.
02-23-2022, 10:51 AM
#120
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Originally Posted by FNGFO
Thats typical Russian paranoia. NATO combined (minus the US) couldn’t begin to contemplate mounting a ground offensive in Europe. China, otoh, would be my main concern if I were them. But preparing for last wars is a thing.
Question: how long do you think it takes to build enough military equipment to mount a ground offensive?
Let's go into paranoid gaming mode for this. Let's say all VW, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Opel, and Smart car factories in Germany were converted to produce military vehicles. How many armored infantry vehicles could they crank out every month? How many months before an aggressive Germany, wanting to secure natural gas supplies, be capable of mounting a ground offensive?
I would be surprised if the Russian military hasn't done tabletop exercises along similar lines.
This may seem farfetched but Europe has an energy deficit problem. Russia has energy.
Paranoid? Perhaps. But suggesting that Germany would become a superpower after WWI was also paranoid, especially with the huge reparations levied on them from the Treaty of Versailles.
You may disagree with Russia's desire to have a large land buffer to protect them from European aggression but I wouldn't dismiss it.
Those that cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
-George Santayana
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