An Immigrant Prospective Pilot needs advice.
09-05-2018, 06:20 PM
#12
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,084
For about $20000 you can get a used, 2-seat trainer which you can fly for your private pilot certificate, instrument rating
Borderline for your private if you intend to make it a career. Just to noodle around recreationally sure.
Here’s my recommendation: do your IR in the same make and model you do your Private in.
Make sure you know the power settings and the in and outs of VOR navigation. This will save you a lot of aggrevation during your IR, money too.
Unless you’ve got money to burn owning an airplane is a PITA.
Tie down fees, maintenance funds, insurance and fuel cost.
If you can fly for $100/hr on your own airplane you’re lucky.
So you buy a plane for $30k and fly 250hrs at $80/hr.
You’re now at $50,000.
Now you need to rent a plane for your Commercial add $3,500-$4000 and add a twin for your ME rating at $5000 give or take.
You’re total is $60,000 which is the same you’ve spend if you’d have your own airplane but without the headaches and having another airplane available in case of maintence issues yadayadayada.
Buying an airplane for your training being cheaper is a case of false economics.
09-05-2018, 06:31 PM
#13
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by TiredSoul
So you buy a plane for $30k and fly 250hrs at $80/hr.
You’re now at $50,000.
Now you need to rent a plane for your Commercial add $3,500-$4000 and add a twin for your ME rating at $5000 give or take.
You’re total is $60,000 which is the same you’ve spend if you’d have your own airplane but without the headaches and having another airplane available in case of maintence issues yadayadayada.
Buying an airplane for your training being cheaper is a case of false economics.
You’re now at $50,000.
Now you need to rent a plane for your Commercial add $3,500-$4000 and add a twin for your ME rating at $5000 give or take.
You’re total is $60,000 which is the same you’ve spend if you’d have your own airplane but without the headaches and having another airplane available in case of maintence issues yadayadayada.
Buying an airplane for your training being cheaper is a case of false economics.
Not always. It can work out if you can take the risk. Do enough hours in it and the risk dilutes enough so it can make a lot of sense.
Mine cost me $54/hr (this includes every single thing I put to the plane, FBO fees, upgrades etc), got me my instrument rating, and 400 hours that allowed me to skip CFI and go straight to jobs that paid a livable wage. Best investment I've ever made.
Buy smart and it's almost impossible to lose money over 250 hours in a plane that's not a dog.
09-05-2018, 10:51 PM
#14
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,084
Buy smart and it's almost impossible to lose money over 250 hours in a plane that's not a dog.
And an airplane is only worth what you can sell it for and not what you paid for it.
And that $54/hr includes fuel? I’m sorry I’m just really sceptical.
You also pay more for flight instructors if you’re not using school/FBO airplanes.
I know people that have done this and for some it worked but it would be the last thing I’d recommend.
09-06-2018, 02:02 AM
#15
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by TiredSoul
And THAT is very difficult for somebody that isn’t familiar with airplanes to begin with and completely has to rely on other people to make the choice.
And an airplane is only worth what you can sell it for and not what you paid for it.
And that $54/hr includes fuel? I’m sorry I’m just really sceptical.
You also pay more for flight instructors if you’re not using school/FBO airplanes.
I know people that have done this and for some it worked but it would be the last thing I’d recommend.
And an airplane is only worth what you can sell it for and not what you paid for it.
And that $54/hr includes fuel? I’m sorry I’m just really sceptical.
You also pay more for flight instructors if you’re not using school/FBO airplanes.
I know people that have done this and for some it worked but it would be the last thing I’d recommend.
You see, almost $10/hr was the plane appreciating. I sold it for about 3500 more than what I paid for it.
You also get much, much better selection/control over who your CFI and DPE is when you have your own plane. And scheduling is a million times easier. And I'm not sure why you would pay more for an instructor? I paid the same as the going rate in the area.
And if you're doing any time building, own airplane is almost a non-brainer. Overnight trips with no daily minimums etc.
I loved that thing.
Have you ever owned an airplane?
09-06-2018, 06:25 AM
#16
All is fine at .79
Joined APC: Sep 2016
Position: Paahlot
Posts: 4,084
Have you ever owned an airplane?
But I have worked for a flight school where we had a lot of privately owned lease back aircraft.
And I’ve instructed in privately owned airplanes.
And some of them are just toast.
Nothing is impossible and I’m not disputing it worked for you.
I’m disputing that it’s a good idea for a newcomer in aviation.
09-18-2018, 10:09 PM
#17
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Aug 2018
Posts: 10
Originally Posted by Elevation
This is a great question to ask before you begin flight training! In addition to what others are suggesting, there are many pathways to get to your certificates which come with different financial and practical costs. After 20 years, flying still is a something I’m passionate about. I still remember the way it affected fundamental parts of who I was when I started. Those things were wonderful, but terrible for financial decision making.
As you get ready to make some big financial decisions, it’s really important you separate yourself from your emotions as much as you can.
You can go from zero to a pilot capable of earning income in multi-engine airplanes (commercial, multi, Instrument) today for costs ranging from as little as $35000 to as much as $250000. That’s almost an order of magnitude in variability when it comes to cost!!!
Some of the trade offs you make have to do with reliability of training, speed of progression, etc. v. total cost and debt load as you start your career. Quality of training matters, but washes out in the long run. The professional aviator you will become depends much more on your personal habits and your first couple jobs than anything else. Along these lines, the first job you get is by far the most difficult one to break into.
20 years ago, taking the path lowest cost (as I did) saved me a lot of money, but I do think that I, as a guy who learned on his own at a small airport, was seen as an unknown quantity while graduates of specific schools were more employable. I did get that first job, though. Once that happened my career was up and chugging along, and I was entirely debt free with a bachelor’s degree, my certificates and working towards a master’s.
So some big-picture decisions for you and your wife to think about would be:
1.) How fast do you want to be done with training?
2.) What is a debt load that is sustainable?
3.) What sort of sacrfices will she have to make to support you in this?
4.) When this career turns bad, it goes bad almost overnight. Imagine yourselves on your worst day. Imagine that all these sacrifices have been made and there’s no job, no prospect of a job without further sacrifice (moving, living separately, etc.). What then? What are the outside limits of what you two are willing to put up with to make this happen?
As you get ready to make some big financial decisions, it’s really important you separate yourself from your emotions as much as you can.
You can go from zero to a pilot capable of earning income in multi-engine airplanes (commercial, multi, Instrument) today for costs ranging from as little as $35000 to as much as $250000. That’s almost an order of magnitude in variability when it comes to cost!!!
Some of the trade offs you make have to do with reliability of training, speed of progression, etc. v. total cost and debt load as you start your career. Quality of training matters, but washes out in the long run. The professional aviator you will become depends much more on your personal habits and your first couple jobs than anything else. Along these lines, the first job you get is by far the most difficult one to break into.
20 years ago, taking the path lowest cost (as I did) saved me a lot of money, but I do think that I, as a guy who learned on his own at a small airport, was seen as an unknown quantity while graduates of specific schools were more employable. I did get that first job, though. Once that happened my career was up and chugging along, and I was entirely debt free with a bachelor’s degree, my certificates and working towards a master’s.
So some big-picture decisions for you and your wife to think about would be:
1.) How fast do you want to be done with training?
2.) What is a debt load that is sustainable?
3.) What sort of sacrfices will she have to make to support you in this?
4.) When this career turns bad, it goes bad almost overnight. Imagine yourselves on your worst day. Imagine that all these sacrifices have been made and there’s no job, no prospect of a job without further sacrifice (moving, living separately, etc.). What then? What are the outside limits of what you two are willing to put up with to make this happen?
09-19-2018, 06:49 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 233
Lets keep this simple...Here's a Tale of Two Brothers.
> The First Brother did the Local FBO/Pay-as-you-go method. Long story short - " It was ALWAYS Something". The Instrument Aircraft was broken, the Instructor cancelled, the money ran out, the weather sucked, the FBO closed, the girlfriend caused problems, the Boss wouldn't let you off work on a given ( important ) day,...It was ALWAYS one step forward and two steps back. Until finally, sick of the lack of consistent progress, he quit flying until he had saved ALL the money required for training, agreed with the Wife that he could quit his job if necessary, agreed with the Boss that he could take a Month off with no pay, and off he marched to a Total Immersion process and left town to go to American Flyers and live in the Apartments they provided. 8-10 hours per day of Ground School, Simulator, and Flying ensued. Three weeks later he had attained his Commercial, Instrument, and CFI . The SAME licenses he had been working on for the past THREE YEARS.
> When the Other Brother ( years later ) said " Hey, if a numb nuts like you can be an airline pilot so can I ! How do I do it? " The First Brother replied " Dump your girlfriend, quit your job, get ALL of the money ( loan, savings, whatever ) in one place... and GO for it ! "
Six months later this Brother had gone from Zero time to Comm. , Instrument, Multi, CFII-MEI and was immediately employed as a Flight Instructor at the school he trained at.
In short: Get all of your TIME, money, resources and responsibilities wrapped up and in one cohesive place and dive in. As opposed to wasting any and all of the above going at things piece-meal.
Just speaking from experience...
GOOD LUCK!
Stimpson
P.S.- I saved the additional money and never did the CFII/MEI. Just did primary Flight Instruction for 600 hours and got my first airline job. That was in a VERY crappy hiring environment, as opposed to now.
> The First Brother did the Local FBO/Pay-as-you-go method. Long story short - " It was ALWAYS Something". The Instrument Aircraft was broken, the Instructor cancelled, the money ran out, the weather sucked, the FBO closed, the girlfriend caused problems, the Boss wouldn't let you off work on a given ( important ) day,...It was ALWAYS one step forward and two steps back. Until finally, sick of the lack of consistent progress, he quit flying until he had saved ALL the money required for training, agreed with the Wife that he could quit his job if necessary, agreed with the Boss that he could take a Month off with no pay, and off he marched to a Total Immersion process and left town to go to American Flyers and live in the Apartments they provided. 8-10 hours per day of Ground School, Simulator, and Flying ensued. Three weeks later he had attained his Commercial, Instrument, and CFI . The SAME licenses he had been working on for the past THREE YEARS.
> When the Other Brother ( years later ) said " Hey, if a numb nuts like you can be an airline pilot so can I ! How do I do it? " The First Brother replied " Dump your girlfriend, quit your job, get ALL of the money ( loan, savings, whatever ) in one place... and GO for it ! "
Six months later this Brother had gone from Zero time to Comm. , Instrument, Multi, CFII-MEI and was immediately employed as a Flight Instructor at the school he trained at.
In short: Get all of your TIME, money, resources and responsibilities wrapped up and in one cohesive place and dive in. As opposed to wasting any and all of the above going at things piece-meal.
Just speaking from experience...
GOOD LUCK!
Stimpson
P.S.- I saved the additional money and never did the CFII/MEI. Just did primary Flight Instruction for 600 hours and got my first airline job. That was in a VERY crappy hiring environment, as opposed to now.
Last edited by Stimpy the Kat; 09-19-2018 at 07:11 AM.
09-19-2018, 07:52 AM
#19
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,286
I did save up and quit my job to focus on training (the GF was given a choice, and she stayed and became permanent eventually).
Some of that had to do with wanting to enjoy school/training again for a while, and I did. But I could have kept my job and proceeded at a slower pace, although that would depend on your job, boss, and other circumstances. In retrospect that would have worked better when ay-holes started flying planes into tall buildings.
Some of that had to do with wanting to enjoy school/training again for a while, and I did. But I could have kept my job and proceeded at a slower pace, although that would depend on your job, boss, and other circumstances. In retrospect that would have worked better when ay-holes started flying planes into tall buildings.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
aaronjmsb
Flight Schools and Training
20
01-29-2016 01:45 PM
