New Commercial Pilot-1st Job Advice
02-08-2024, 08:46 AM
#11
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by captjns
One more question to add:
Tell us why you had to seek advice from an aviation forum to make a concerted dicision.
Tell us why you had to seek advice from an aviation forum to make a concerted dicision.
Id say that I was in a situation where I wanted some more information and asked for help..and found it. Ive seen that most people in any hobby, skillset or profession are willing to offer valuable advice as evidenced by all the great replies here, including yours.
02-08-2024, 09:21 AM
#12
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,026
When I took my ATP practical test, the examiner told me that I should falsify my logbook. Build up plenty of time to get a job, and if my conscience bothered me, just not log the same number of hours in the future. He said it was more like "borrowing" the hours. I declined to do that. I've known a number of pilots who have, however, and have flown with, interviewed, evaluated, and seen fired pilots who did falsify their experience. Quite a few of them. The system makes it easy to do. There are several problems with that easy freebie, though, starting with a decline in personal integrity when one lessens one's self, and lowers one's self to a baser ethic. Then there's the legal issue, both fraudulent in the insurance application and outright falsification, which is a violation of the regulation, and signed upon a legal document, a crime. It can be prosecuted criminally, too. The process cheats the person who does it, and it cheats the client who has an underqualified client flying the airplane.
When I was very young, I was in a thrift store with my parents and found a plethora of scout badges for sale. It was a teaching moment, when I queried purchasing them, saving all the time of needing to earn them. Unearned badges, log time, experience, has no value, no meaning, and cheapens not only the log, the airman, the bearer, but all the time that comes thereafter. If an hour in your logbook isn't really an hour in your logbook, then what is it, but a tick mark of ink on a page? Will that tick mark generate systems knowledge, or the judgement to go or not go? Will it help fly the airplane on raw data in the dark of a storm, or help you navigate weather? No. It might put you in a position where you do those things without experience, knowledge, skills, or abilities. It might get you the job, and today, "fake it 'till you make it" seems more common than ever. CEO's, politicians, stars, influencers, and bright-eyed hopefulls lie their way to their goal. It's easy. it's also toxic and wrong. You know it, and though your boss has no bones of encouraging you to do it, he knows it, too.
When I began spraying fields as a kid, my boss gave me a choice: unless I had a thousand hours of ag time, my insurance would be much more expensive. Falsify that time, he said, and the job is yours. Otherwise, I'll hire you, but you must pay the difference in insurance. I'll take it from your pay.
I chose not to falsify my experience, and he took it from my pay. My time over the next thousand hours came slowly. Glacially slowly, with .2 here, .4 there, and every moment of it hard-earned, flying in 40 knot winds under powerlines and 5' off the crop in a hot, unairconditioned loud greenhouse cockpit, working on the airplanes, mixing the chemicals, cleaning the tanks, and so on. I came away educated in a way only honest work could do; perhaps most valuable of all, I knew myself. More important than that, however, I came away stronger in my conviction to uphold my principles. I could find another job, but not another self, not another life, and the lessons reverberate to this day. I fall on them and use them constantly, as do we all, from the choices we have made.
Someone wise once told me to be careful of scars earned in battles in which one should never have fought.
Pick your battles. Sometimes, it's best to walk away.
When I was very young, I was in a thrift store with my parents and found a plethora of scout badges for sale. It was a teaching moment, when I queried purchasing them, saving all the time of needing to earn them. Unearned badges, log time, experience, has no value, no meaning, and cheapens not only the log, the airman, the bearer, but all the time that comes thereafter. If an hour in your logbook isn't really an hour in your logbook, then what is it, but a tick mark of ink on a page? Will that tick mark generate systems knowledge, or the judgement to go or not go? Will it help fly the airplane on raw data in the dark of a storm, or help you navigate weather? No. It might put you in a position where you do those things without experience, knowledge, skills, or abilities. It might get you the job, and today, "fake it 'till you make it" seems more common than ever. CEO's, politicians, stars, influencers, and bright-eyed hopefulls lie their way to their goal. It's easy. it's also toxic and wrong. You know it, and though your boss has no bones of encouraging you to do it, he knows it, too.
When I began spraying fields as a kid, my boss gave me a choice: unless I had a thousand hours of ag time, my insurance would be much more expensive. Falsify that time, he said, and the job is yours. Otherwise, I'll hire you, but you must pay the difference in insurance. I'll take it from your pay.
I chose not to falsify my experience, and he took it from my pay. My time over the next thousand hours came slowly. Glacially slowly, with .2 here, .4 there, and every moment of it hard-earned, flying in 40 knot winds under powerlines and 5' off the crop in a hot, unairconditioned loud greenhouse cockpit, working on the airplanes, mixing the chemicals, cleaning the tanks, and so on. I came away educated in a way only honest work could do; perhaps most valuable of all, I knew myself. More important than that, however, I came away stronger in my conviction to uphold my principles. I could find another job, but not another self, not another life, and the lessons reverberate to this day. I fall on them and use them constantly, as do we all, from the choices we have made.
Someone wise once told me to be careful of scars earned in battles in which one should never have fought.
Pick your battles. Sometimes, it's best to walk away.
02-08-2024, 12:10 PM
#13
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 19
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
When I took my ATP practical test, the examiner told me that I should falsify my logbook. Build up plenty of time to get a job, and if my conscience bothered me, just not log the same number of hours in the future. He said it was more like "borrowing" the hours. I declined to do that. I've known a number of pilots who have, however, and have flown with, interviewed, evaluated, and seen fired pilots who did falsify their experience. Quite a few of them. The system makes it easy to do. There are several problems with that easy freebie, though, starting with a decline in personal integrity when one lessens one's self, and lowers one's self to a baser ethic. Then there's the legal issue, both fraudulent in the insurance application and outright falsification, which is a violation of the regulation, and signed upon a legal document, a crime. It can be prosecuted criminally, too. The process cheats the person who does it, and it cheats the client who has an underqualified client flying the airplane.
When I was very young, I was in a thrift store with my parents and found a plethora of scout badges for sale. It was a teaching moment, when I queried purchasing them, saving all the time of needing to earn them. Unearned badges, log time, experience, has no value, no meaning, and cheapens not only the log, the airman, the bearer, but all the time that comes thereafter. If an hour in your logbook isn't really an hour in your logbook, then what is it, but a tick mark of ink on a page? Will that tick mark generate systems knowledge, or the judgement to go or not go? Will it help fly the airplane on raw data in the dark of a storm, or help you navigate weather? No. It might put you in a position where you do those things without experience, knowledge, skills, or abilities. It might get you the job, and today, "fake it 'till you make it" seems more common than ever. CEO's, politicians, stars, influencers, and bright-eyed hopefulls lie their way to their goal. It's easy. it's also toxic and wrong. You know it, and though your boss has no bones of encouraging you to do it, he knows it, too.
When I began spraying fields as a kid, my boss gave me a choice: unless I had a thousand hours of ag time, my insurance would be much more expensive. Falsify that time, he said, and the job is yours. Otherwise, I'll hire you, but you must pay the difference in insurance. I'll take it from your pay.
I chose not to falsify my experience, and he took it from my pay. My time over the next thousand hours came slowly. Glacially slowly, with .2 here, .4 there, and every moment of it hard-earned, flying in 40 knot winds under powerlines and 5' off the crop in a hot, unairconditioned loud greenhouse cockpit, working on the airplanes, mixing the chemicals, cleaning the tanks, and so on. I came away educated in a way only honest work could do; perhaps most valuable of all, I knew myself. More important than that, however, I came away stronger in my conviction to uphold my principles. I could find another job, but not another self, not another life, and the lessons reverberate to this day. I fall on them and use them constantly, as do we all, from the choices we have made.
Someone wise once told me to be careful of scars earned in battles in which one should never have fought.
Pick your battles. Sometimes, it's best to walk away.
When I was very young, I was in a thrift store with my parents and found a plethora of scout badges for sale. It was a teaching moment, when I queried purchasing them, saving all the time of needing to earn them. Unearned badges, log time, experience, has no value, no meaning, and cheapens not only the log, the airman, the bearer, but all the time that comes thereafter. If an hour in your logbook isn't really an hour in your logbook, then what is it, but a tick mark of ink on a page? Will that tick mark generate systems knowledge, or the judgement to go or not go? Will it help fly the airplane on raw data in the dark of a storm, or help you navigate weather? No. It might put you in a position where you do those things without experience, knowledge, skills, or abilities. It might get you the job, and today, "fake it 'till you make it" seems more common than ever. CEO's, politicians, stars, influencers, and bright-eyed hopefulls lie their way to their goal. It's easy. it's also toxic and wrong. You know it, and though your boss has no bones of encouraging you to do it, he knows it, too.
When I began spraying fields as a kid, my boss gave me a choice: unless I had a thousand hours of ag time, my insurance would be much more expensive. Falsify that time, he said, and the job is yours. Otherwise, I'll hire you, but you must pay the difference in insurance. I'll take it from your pay.
I chose not to falsify my experience, and he took it from my pay. My time over the next thousand hours came slowly. Glacially slowly, with .2 here, .4 there, and every moment of it hard-earned, flying in 40 knot winds under powerlines and 5' off the crop in a hot, unairconditioned loud greenhouse cockpit, working on the airplanes, mixing the chemicals, cleaning the tanks, and so on. I came away educated in a way only honest work could do; perhaps most valuable of all, I knew myself. More important than that, however, I came away stronger in my conviction to uphold my principles. I could find another job, but not another self, not another life, and the lessons reverberate to this day. I fall on them and use them constantly, as do we all, from the choices we have made.
Someone wise once told me to be careful of scars earned in battles in which one should never have fought.
Pick your battles. Sometimes, it's best to walk away.
Wow...I get the whole pay it forward thing but...breaking rules knowingly, especially ones that can come back to haunt you are a big no-no for me.
The thing is ultimatley it would come back on ME as PIC and then what, shoot myself in the foot for a couple hundred hours this summer? hahaha no thanks.
As an update, I told him Im not lying. He wasnt happy, but still offered me the job. I should have just bitten the bullet and got my CFI, haha.
Thank you all again for the replies...John Burke I should probably be paying you for ground.
02-08-2024, 01:25 PM
#14
done, gone skiing
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Rocking chair
Posts: 1,601
It's a trap!!
"It's a trap!", Admiral Ackbar's line, which he says during the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi,
Not much to add to the previous post regarding falsifying a personal flight log. One issue alluded to by other posters is the dilemma falsifying something at the urging of a current or potential employer. If you are willing to lie about your flight experience and others know it, they can expect you to do it again, in the future. The OP didn’t define the kind flying he would be doing nor the type of aircraft. In all likelihood, it is a lower end GA aircraft with the anemic performance one came to appreciate and understand, especially during multiengine training. Most four seat aircraft lack the (legal) ability to lift 4 adults and enough fuel and bags and not exceed the aircrafts weight limit. Under report cargo, ditto fuel. Overlook maintenance, fly into questionable weather, fly fatigued, lie about hours flown, the list goes on. Various operators have since the beginning of flying, threatened, coerced, bribed, blackmailed, misrepresented, etc, etc to get pilot(s) to fly flights that better judgment would have suggested should not have been flown. The pilots license (and often more) is on the line when things go sideways and the FAA, NTSB, law enforcement, …. start asking questions. You can bet who is not going to, “take one for the team” when accountably becomes an issue. Something to think about when someone is asking, before even being hired, if you will fudge your flight time.
Not much to add to the previous post regarding falsifying a personal flight log. One issue alluded to by other posters is the dilemma falsifying something at the urging of a current or potential employer. If you are willing to lie about your flight experience and others know it, they can expect you to do it again, in the future. The OP didn’t define the kind flying he would be doing nor the type of aircraft. In all likelihood, it is a lower end GA aircraft with the anemic performance one came to appreciate and understand, especially during multiengine training. Most four seat aircraft lack the (legal) ability to lift 4 adults and enough fuel and bags and not exceed the aircrafts weight limit. Under report cargo, ditto fuel. Overlook maintenance, fly into questionable weather, fly fatigued, lie about hours flown, the list goes on. Various operators have since the beginning of flying, threatened, coerced, bribed, blackmailed, misrepresented, etc, etc to get pilot(s) to fly flights that better judgment would have suggested should not have been flown. The pilots license (and often more) is on the line when things go sideways and the FAA, NTSB, law enforcement, …. start asking questions. You can bet who is not going to, “take one for the team” when accountably becomes an issue. Something to think about when someone is asking, before even being hired, if you will fudge your flight time.
02-08-2024, 02:31 PM
#16
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Posts: 24
Originally Posted by dckozak
"It's a trap!", Admiral Ackbar's line, which he says during the Battle of Endor in Return of the Jedi,
Not much to add to the previous post regarding falsifying a personal flight log. One issue alluded to by other posters is the dilemma falsifying something at the urging of a current or potential employer. If you are willing to lie about your flight experience and others know it, they can expect you to do it again, in the future. The OP didn’t define the kind flying he would be doing nor the type of aircraft. In all likelihood, it is a lower end GA aircraft with the anemic performance one came to appreciate and understand, especially during multiengine training. Most four seat aircraft lack the (legal) ability to lift 4 adults and enough fuel and bags and not exceed the aircrafts weight limit. Under report cargo, ditto fuel. Overlook maintenance, fly into questionable weather, fly fatigued, lie about hours flown, the list goes on. Various operators have since the beginning of flying, threatened, coerced, bribed, blackmailed, misrepresented, etc, etc to get pilot(s) to fly flights that better judgment would have suggested should not have been flown. The pilots license (and often more) is on the line when things go sideways and the FAA, NTSB, law enforcement, …. start asking questions. You can bet who is not going to, “take one for the team” when accountably becomes an issue. Something to think about when someone is asking, before even being hired, if you will fudge your flight time.
Not much to add to the previous post regarding falsifying a personal flight log. One issue alluded to by other posters is the dilemma falsifying something at the urging of a current or potential employer. If you are willing to lie about your flight experience and others know it, they can expect you to do it again, in the future. The OP didn’t define the kind flying he would be doing nor the type of aircraft. In all likelihood, it is a lower end GA aircraft with the anemic performance one came to appreciate and understand, especially during multiengine training. Most four seat aircraft lack the (legal) ability to lift 4 adults and enough fuel and bags and not exceed the aircrafts weight limit. Under report cargo, ditto fuel. Overlook maintenance, fly into questionable weather, fly fatigued, lie about hours flown, the list goes on. Various operators have since the beginning of flying, threatened, coerced, bribed, blackmailed, misrepresented, etc, etc to get pilot(s) to fly flights that better judgment would have suggested should not have been flown. The pilots license (and often more) is on the line when things go sideways and the FAA, NTSB, law enforcement, …. start asking questions. You can bet who is not going to, “take one for the team” when accountably becomes an issue. Something to think about when someone is asking, before even being hired, if you will fudge your flight time.
Watch yourself out there and stay safe.
02-08-2024, 02:58 PM
#17
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 19
Yeah totally--That was the first thing I thought...maintenance, inspections, bad weather etc what else will I be asked. I never will alllow myself to be forced to do anything illegal or dangerous, but its more like....I didnt think this would be too common in aviation. Ironically I still have the job offer but, still a little warry.
Mods..any chance we can delete this thread? hahaha
Mods..any chance we can delete this thread? hahaha
02-08-2024, 08:19 PM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Window seat
Posts: 5,213
Find out the the laws of the state are about 'one party' recordings. If you can do it legally it might be worthwhile talking to a lawyer a LONG way away about taping any contact with your future boss.
02-09-2024, 03:45 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Originally Posted by Sliceback
Find out the the laws of the state are about 'one party' recordings. If you can do it legally it might be worthwhile talking to a lawyer a LONG way away about taping any contact with your future boss.
03-28-2024, 06:38 PM
#20
On Reserve
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Oct 2018
Posts: 19
Well as an update I ended up leaving. Boss is really mad, I ended up losing some money moving out of state and wasting time I should have been studying for CFI.
Basically I wasnt allowed to look at maintenance logs because he said I wouldnt understand them, he kept asking me to bust FARS, and pay was half of what we agreed...
When I told him I quit he accused me of just coming for free "training" and that in the end he would "win". Kind of scary.
I should have heeded everyones advice sooner. I never did sign a contract, nor did we have a verbal agreement. However he told me he would come after me for the money for "training" which was like 3 hours of him showing me how to a particular task.
I know airline guys have quit during training and thats a big no no, but given the circumstances, you guys have any tips on how to proceed? I never signed a contract but he did say he will get me back LOL
Basically I wasnt allowed to look at maintenance logs because he said I wouldnt understand them, he kept asking me to bust FARS, and pay was half of what we agreed...
When I told him I quit he accused me of just coming for free "training" and that in the end he would "win". Kind of scary.
I should have heeded everyones advice sooner. I never did sign a contract, nor did we have a verbal agreement. However he told me he would come after me for the money for "training" which was like 3 hours of him showing me how to a particular task.
I know airline guys have quit during training and thats a big no no, but given the circumstances, you guys have any tips on how to proceed? I never signed a contract but he did say he will get me back LOL
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
