I'm in the process of starting to get things lined-up for a run at the airlines.

I know I have a lot to do and would like some guidance on which areas to reinforce most....or if I'm delusional for even thinking about it.

The numbers:
I'm C-S/MEL with instrument. (I am NOT an instructor)
650 TT (360 X-cntry, 39 actual-inst, 71 night, 405 PIC)
250 Multi
- 170 SIC Turbo-Prop (Merlin, Metroliner, King Air 100/200/350)
- 20 SIC Turbo-Fan (Citation II, Citation III, BeechJet)

I've completed Insurance-required/approved school for:
PIC - Cessna 337 SkyMaster Multi-Piston, Centerline
SIC - Fairchild SA-227 Merlin/Metroliner Multi-Turbine 12,500+
SIC - Citation III C-650 Multi Jet
SIC - Citation II C-550 Multi Jet
SIC - Mitsubishi MU-300 Multi Jet

My objective:
Airline
Not too picky as to which one.
My dream job is to work for Delta...someday.
I dont mind starting at a regional.
I dont mind starting with a freighter
I dont mind starting as a flight attendant
baggage-handler
toilet scrubber

Working against me:
- low time
- I'm 41
- not an instructor
- No bachelors degree (I have two associates)
- At-fault accident on record ( 2 yrs ago, no fatalities )

Working for me:
- 20+ years of management positions
- Background of impeccable reliability and critical thinking
- Employment history is diverse but stable (7 yrs with current employer)

I dont know if it makes any difference:
- Former Deputy Sheriff
- Former State Investigator
- Former Emergency Medical Tech.
- Honorably Discharged from Army
- LOTS of airline buddy's offering to write me letters.
(Delta Line-Check Pilot, SWA Recruiter, United International Capt,
Half-dozen Regional F.O.'s)

Strongest selling point that they cant ask about:
I haven't missed a single day of work in my 23 years of full-time employment history.
I am fiercely (almost pathologicly) loyal to my employers (as long as they share the level of committment).

Questions:
I have some cash in reserve for "emergencies"
a) Is there any strategic value in acquiring a Q-400 or 737 type rating in hopes it might make me more appetizing for interviewers?
b) Is it wiser to put that money/time into getting my CFII to fly around in circles, building time/experience to get me through the "minimums gate"?
c) Do letters of recommendation actually do anything or are they scratch-paper for the interviewer?

If I can get an interview or if I can get to the reference-checks....I can get the job .... people LOVE me...and they should But the initial screening is the killer.

Any guidance is GREATLY appreciated.

Cole Reed
[email protected]

 

Lots of good information in this post and I look forward to hearing the advice that many will offer you.
But I think you are already behind the 8-ball if this is really what you think of instructing, especially since it seems to be one of the more traditional and more worthy roads to the hours required that produce a better pilot in the end to a degree.

I didn't want to instruct right out of the batter's box either, but I can at least appreciate the value of instructing for a time. Later on in life I learned that I very much enjoyed instructing once I felt I had the experience.

Good luck in your quest.

USMCFLYR

 

There two big squares you haven't checked to make it to the top. One is the degree and the other is 1000 PIC turbine. When hiring picks up, you could have a shot at a regional, which is traditionally a way to move up the ladder, but by the time you get there your age will be a factor. A lot just depends on how much hiring there is in the future and supply/demand.

I wouldn't bother with a type rating.

I'd look for something that your background would be a asset for. For example, your LEO background might look attractive to a few outfits that do prisoner shuttles or border patrol, something like that. Outside that, you'll just have to slug it out like everyone else. Get the total time up to 135 PIC mins and get a freight job at a place like Amflight. They fly metro's and would see your age as an asset.

You have to remember that, for a Delta type job, that you are competing with 30 year old RJ Capts who have five years as PIC and a four year degree. But, if you'd be happy somewhere in the middle of the career rather than the top, you have a better shot.

Anyhow, good luck. I think there is a place for everyone in the biz who can balance the bad with the good and still want the job.

Funny, somebody at APC is always telling people they should get out of flying and become a cop. Sounds like you did the opposite.

 

Just like the others have said.. gotta get that 4 year degree otherwise no chance at Delta, United, or SWA and even when you get it.. these days your gonna have to start at a regional.
Here is another option, and I mean this with all due respect... when hiring picks up why not just choose a good regional and stay there for the rest of your career? Your age is gonna be a factor, no hiding that fact.. But you could make a good career at a regional (after about 6 or 7 years and an upgrade).
Just food for thought.

 

I fear that in my haste to relate as much of my info in as concise as possible a format....I may have inadvertantly given the wrong impression.

Allow me to clarify:
I'd love to work for a good regional. My current favorite is Alaska Airlines. SWA is, of course, another Dream Job; but as with my Delta fantasy....I liken it to winning the lottary. This is why one of the Typre-ratings I was asking about is the Q-400 (Colgan/Masaba/Horizon).

I've got no ego to stroke. I'll be as content sitting right-seat in a heavy turbo-prop as I would be in a jet.

In fact, if given my preference between flying in a coat and tie for Delta or in sweaty cargo shorts for AirServe....I'd take the latter. But my wife has this funny thing about wanting me state-side. She doesnt mind if I travel (all of my jobs have required extensive travel) but she would like to see me for a few days out of the month....enough for me to mow and take out the trash, etc.

As for my opinion of being an instructor.... every career I've developed, I've pursued to "Instructor" level. I truely LOVE teaching people. The challenge of finding that mysterious and very individual approach to getting each student to absorbe the lesson is exciting. As for being a CFI...meeting that challenge while successfully keeping your student from killing you has its own unique appeal. My dilima is whether or not teaching someone "Pitch for airspeed, power for altitude" in a 1300 pound Tomahawk is as relevant to a 100,000 regional airliner or if a crisp, new (unused) type-rating in an aircraft deployed by the interviewing agency would be more helpful.

I am fortunate enough to have a wonderful relationship with a loving, caring and encouraging wife....who also happens to be a successful psychologist. So MY earnings are somewhat....trivial. This allows me the relative luxury of not having to chase the paycheck.

Yeah, the monster checks associated with legacy majors wouldnt hurt my feelings. But 2,3,5,7 years at a Regional SIC pay-grade wont kill me.

The question that begs to be asked is: "Why do I want to go to the airlines?" The answer is simple. I am at an age where its time to take effective steps towards securing retirement benefits. Despite my best efforts, I am not getting any younger. And I want to get started on my final career while I am still "young" enough to do it right.

Now....you know more about my motivations and philosophy. Sorry for the earlier confusion.

 

Cole –
I appreciate the analytics you’ve applied to this career choice, but there are a few incongruities. As well as, and maybe most importantly for you, there is no delineated, absolute path to achieving your goal.
Ok, here’s my two cents:
This is on the low-side for what is happening in the industry today. Your multi time looks fairly decent, especially given your TT. My advice is to shoot for at least 1000 TT and even higher (1200 – 1500) perhaps… depending on when the regional airlines start practicing the new legislation. My instinct tells me they probably won’t implement it soon so you’ll most likely be able to skate in under the wire and be grandfathered in when it goes into full effect in three years.
These are icing on the cake – not the cake itself, which is what an airline needs to grant an interview. It will just make you look more attractive if you are right there with what they’re competitive hiring mins are running.

This is a good thing – you don’t have the competitive hours to be selective. Don’t bet on any LLC or Legacy carrier to be calling anytime soon. The reality is that you will start your airline career at a regional (maybe go to a legacy from a freight outfit) and before that something less glamorous like flight instruction, banner towing, fire patrol and maybe, maybe some cargo. But most freight companies will want Part 135 minimums. They may, or may not, care about your “insurance required/approved schools.” It depends on how THEIR ops specs are written and THEIR insurance company’s requirements.

I recommend you start networking and finding out what regionals you like/dislike (be realistic with your evaluation, no regional is perfect), what freight/cargo operators are appealing and in the meantime get the CFI/MEI/CFII. You will learn more about yourself as a pilot and experience some invaluable lessons, which will only further develop your flying skills.

I know you were being sarcastic with starting as a flight-attendant, baggage handler or toilet scrubber – but I just have to address it. Many people believe this is a sure-fire in to a pilot position with the company. There are a couple of inehrant problems with that rationale. First, many people will slow their time-building to take on this type of job, or stop all together – NOT what you want to do. If you want to be a pilot then fly to build the time you need ASAP. Second, it MIGHT get you a preferential interview when/if they start hiring pilots (and that is only if you are also competitive hour-wise.) I emphasize might because many airlines, particularly regionals, don’t play that game. You’re better off flying as much as possible and applying “off the street.”
You’re right – these do work against you. But some more than others. A bachelor’s degree is a must with certain airlines – you need to research the ones that require/don’t require one and decide whether or not it is worth pursuing the degree. It will close doors for you – at the major airline level (note* I include LLC and Legacy carriers in the term “major airline.”) Most regionals don’t require a degree.

The accident – frankly, that just isn’t enough information to determine whether or not it is a factor. You will have to explain yourself at the interview (I’m thinking positively here that you WILL get an interview.)
Low time is most certainly the biggest factor. I wouldn’t anticipate a call from any airline with 650 TT right now…. Unless there is some unforeseen circumstance…maybe they aren’t attracting higher-time pilots…. Just do yourself a favor and don’t bet on it.

Age – this may, or may not, make any difference at all. It’s all about ROI for the airlines. I’ve personally seen many folks hired with regionals AND majors who were well into their 50s. Don’t let it stop you – just let it be a fire under your butt to get busy and rack up TT. You may take your age into consideration when/if you decide you want to move to a major airline and start all over at the bottom of the pay scale.
Yes, BUT… it won’t get you the interview. In the interview, it will only help if they are “on the fence” about whether or not you are worth the monetary investment. Keep in mind that when interviewers evaluate they are not determining whether or not you are a “good guy” they are determining whether or not you will pass their training program and someone they will want to fly with in the future. Yes, it most certainly looks a lot better than someone who has job-hopped over the last 10 years – they don’t appear too terribly stable.
First three, no – the others show you are accomplished and seem fairly driven.
Army – yes, it can help with those airlines who favor military backgrounds.
Lots of buddies walking in your resume – yes, absolutely. You never know their influence.
Great that you haven’t missed a day of work – and it will serve you well in the interview. But let’s not put the cart before the horse – you’re asking about what direction to take in order to GET the interview.
Ok, pathologically loyal is a little creepy.

On a side–note…I recommend you subscribe to an aviation newsletter of sorts. Get to know how airline management and labor groups work together – it’s different in the airlines. I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but I would venture to guess that very few pilots actually feel like the airline reciprocates with loyalty. I wouldn’t set out looking for that in a future employer. You may be disappointed.
a) absolutely not – not at this stage of the game for you. I know, many schools will make it seem a type-rating, or some turbo-fan systems program, is invaluable and will make you irresistible….NOT the case. Keep in mind that they want your money. The only reason to get a type is if it is needed (SWA requires it for class) or it is free. Another important point to remember… if you have a type it open a whole new can-o-worms at the interview. The interviewers will EXPECT that you know more about that airplane, so be prepared for intense systems questions. Honestly, unless you have time in that aircraft for which you are rated….it’s worthless.

b)Is it wiser than what? I certainly recommend it. Not to mention it may be one of your only options at this point. The “minimums gate” isn’t just a gate – it’s an expected level of experience. Key word: experience. Many people will buy time and literally fly around in circles just to build the “minimum time.” Trouble is, when they are in the interview their lack of knowledge, and skill, will show through in spades. It’s not just about the minimums, it’s about learning how to deal with the inevitable circumstances that arise.

c) Yes, they absolutely carry weight. An airline will “trust” a current employee more that someone who they don’t know. The caveat is that the best letters to have are from current employees (line pilots) who can attest to your flying skills – meaning, they have flown with you in the past. Don’t burn bridges either – a disparaging letter will carry as much weight as a recommendation. This is a TINY industry and you’ll be surprised who you run into in the future.

[continued in next post]


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Ummm. Alaska is a LCC, not a regional. Colgan, Mesaba, Horizon (like you mention below), Skywest, ExpressJet, Great Lakes and many others are regionals.
You aren’t competitive for Alaska yet. But working in a Part 121 environment (once you’re competitive for that) will get you in line for someone like Alaska or Delta. Check their college degree requirements though…

Make it a goal. You can do it if you get down to business and make it happen. No lottery ticket needed.

None of the regionals will be expecting or requiring a type. Please remember that it may be more detrimental to you than not having one. It allows the interview to mercilessly probe into that aircraft’s systems – if you don’t know that aircraft and just have the type it will work against you. Spend your money more wisely.

What about a light turbo-prop?

Saturday Night Live just popped into my head – the skit with Amy and Seth… “Really?”

Without hesitation YES it is relevant. It all goes back to experience. Experience with the unexpected…. stick time….. crosswind landings….. an unused type rating is worthless if unused.

I can teach you to fly my airplane, but the two things I can’t teach you – attitude and experience.

Plus, I’m not sure what you mean by “type-rating in an aircraft deployed by the interviewing agency” – what does this mean? If you are referring to simulator evaluations as part of an interview that could be a problem in and of itself. Many airlines will utilize a simulator for evaluation that isn’t part of their active fleet. So obtaining a type rating for that aircraft (assuming one would be required to fly that airframe) may be completely and utterly useless. Please clarify – maybe I’m interpreting what you’re asking incorrectly.
This is good – your first several years in this business (including the first few years at a regional) won’t give you much in the way of a paycheck.
I think you’re remembering the good ‘ol days Cole. Those don’t really exist anymore. Anybody who is earning a monster check is a senior, senior captain flying heavies overseas. Even they are a diminishing breed as most were on the “A” scale and getting close to retirement. Only to be replaced with “B” scale folks. Maybe someone who earns those monster checks can chime in here –
Cole – if you’re looking for any type of retirement package, or pension, you better start focusing on corporate flying or government flying. Retirement packages or pensions are a thing of the past in commercial aviation. Anyone I know who had one, has either lost it entirely (due to bankruptcies, etc) or it has been so severely reduced it is laughable. Most commercial airlines do not offer pensions anymore – it has all gone to 401K. Now some airlines have a more aggressive 401K package than others (with matching) but you won’t find a retirement package like you used to years ago.

I hope this helps. Keep flying and keep your eye on the prize!
Lori


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You "hope this helps"?

This has been TREMENDOUSLY helpful!!!

Thank you so SO much for your insight and advice.

I didnt detect any hesitation in your very resolute advice against seeking any pre-emptive type-rating. Thats good news, cuz while I was willing...I was nervous about burning my reserves on pure speculation.
Action Item= Type-Rating has been completely dismissed.

I completely agree with honing your personal skills by teaching others. In fact, one my practices in getting my current ratings was to turn each lesson I was being taught into a lesson that I would teach. This helped me understand, but frustrated my instructors. While it gave me a MUCH better comprehension, it slowed the process considerably. I ALWAYS believe that you learn more through teaching (thus my past instructor gigs).
Action Item = CFI/CFII/MEI will be prioritized and I should have them by December...which should put my TT over 1000 by June, 2011 (when I turn 42....still marginally competitive.)

Education....yeah, I know. Gotta demonstrate I'm willing/able to endure for a goal. They likely dont care what the degree is in. They just use it as a filtering tool to keep out the riff-raff.
Action Item = I've started researching programs that will allow me to pencil-whip another 30 credit hours to get a bachelors.

Industry news letter. I get (and read) sooooo much stuff. Give me some recommendations and I'll get on their distribution.

Retirement benefits. Yeah, I understand that since the introduction of 401k "do it yourself" retirement, NO employer (airline or otherwise) holds your hand through retirement. When your productivity ends, so does their interest. I primarily want the health care and travel benes.

"Fiercely loyal is kinda creepy" Yup. It is a very sharp, very delicate double-edged sword. I know that, as with any employer, it'll take a while for them to appreciate the latest "greenhorn".

No, I was not being sarcastic about being willing to start as a toilet scrubber. But I do value and understand your guidance on how my time and experience will be better served in more applicable pursuits. Thus my action items above.

Light turbo-prop..... Starts getting a little scarey. smaller aircraft usually equates to fewer resources. Since the birds are revenue generators and benes are revenue depleaters....if they dont spend much on their aircraft....they will spend even less on their crews. But I'll exclude nothing from being a means to an end....(so long as that end isnt another smoking hole in the ground). Would I fly a 208 full of boxes? In a heartbeat. Would I fly a Beaver full off tourists? In a heartbeat. Would I fly a 206 full of Jumpers? Probably.

Lori, I cannot thank you enough for your guidance. It allows me to start selecting a path to head towards my goal. As that gets nearer, I will most certainly be utilizing your services to maximize my marketability.

Now....to start prepping for CFI. My latest adventure.

Limitless thanks, again...to you ALL.

Cole