jarretk

I got caught in the dreaded right seat king air debacle and have a few questions before I submit my airline apps. Luckily I only did the King Air flying as a contract basis while flying a Lear part 91, but still racked up 85 hours in the KA. I knew I could not log it as SIC because the plane does not require it so I just logged it as total, MEL, X-Country, and turboprop. I have been told the insurance company requires 2 crew on 135 legs but still not 100% sure. Airline apps only has a column for PIC, Dual given, dual received, and SIC, so my question is; is there a way to put it in airline apps or should I just scratch it out of my logbook and deal with a crappy looking logbook until I can rewrite the whole thing.

uboatdriver

It appears that you were flying under part 135. Some questions:

Did you receive a part 135 SIC checkride?
Was an SIC required by your OPSPECS?
Were you flying passengers and was there an operable autopilot?
Were there any Part 91 legs?
Were you the sole manipulator of the controls?

The answers to these questions will help us understand your situation a little better. Depending on the situation, you could legally log PIC, SIC, or nothing. What to put on AirlineApps is another matter that can be more readily discussed with this information.

rickair7777

There are only two things which can authorize you to log ANY time in the right seat of an aircraft (in a US/FAA context):

1. The aircraft is type-certificated by the FAA for two pilots.

OR

2. The aircraft is being operated under an FAA OPSPEC or other FAA authorization/requirement which requires two pilots.

Insurance requirements are not regulatory, even though certain states may require insurance.

This is an easy fix though. Make a single log book entry with today's date and subtract out all of the time logged in error. Make a brief note stating what this is for and the date range of the erroneous logbook entries...this will make it easy for future interviewers to see what was going on.

Also remove the time from any online apps you submitted. If anyone asks why your total time dropped, you have a good explanation basically an honest mistake which probably was caused by some scumbag lying to you when you were an entry-level pilot. Much better to fix it yourself than get called out on it later.

If by some chance you already took a checkride based on this time (ie ATP), you have more work ahead of you. You'll need to contact the FAA and explain the situation and they will probably make you re-take the checkride (don't exercise the privileges in the meantime). Talk to a lawyer before you call the FAA, but I'm pretty sure they'll consider this a mistake, not fraud. At least if you catch it before they do.

uboatdriver

I respectfully disagree. If he is the sole manipulator of the controls, he most certainly can log PIC (and total, etc.) time. Future employers may not want you to list it as PIC, but it is certainly legal. I have over 200 hours of this time. On Airline Apps, I list this as SIC time since it is neither Instructor, Dual or their definition of PIC.

A parallel to the King Air right seat question is how many pilots log PIC (or any time) in the left seat when the guy in the right seat is the sole manipulator. All else being equal, he can't log any of that time. I have over 300 hours of time as the designated "Captain" that I can't log. Not as total, not as PIC, not as multi. I simply put it in a separate column for anyone that is interested in it, myself included. This time is not listed on Airline Apps, because there is no legal justification to log it.

I would be careful with assuming that his time is illegitimate and the guidance given based on that assumption. There are scenarios where he could legitimately log PIC or SIC. Without knowing the details of his situation, it's impossible to make that judgment.

That said, if this time is not legitimate, you advice in correcting the situation is spot on.

rickair7777

I assumed by the context of the post that...

- The operator did not have an SIC requirement in the OPSPEC, therefore no SIC could be legally logged.

- The designated PIC logged the entire flight time in all cases.

Yes, he can log sole manipulator time assuming he had any. But in this situation, the guy who was the PIC would then be precluded from logging PIC time.

61.51(e)(i) allows the sole manipulator to log PIC.
61.51(e)(iii) allows the PIC to log PIC at all times when operating a crewed airplane where the second pilot is required by certification or regulation.

The problem is that the there was no additional crew legally required, so the actual PIC could not log time when his "SIC" was logging sole man. time. At least that's how I read it.

61.51(e)(iii) allows more than one pilot to log time, but that does not apply in this case.

todd405

What king air did you fly? Remember that the king air 300 and 350's require a type rating.

Here is what I did with a similar situation. I worked for a 135 operator that put me in the right seat of a Citation Jet for their insurance. I wasn't 135 qualified or typed in the airplane, but I did manage to rack up about 114 hrs flying from the right seat. I kept track of the time (approaches, x-country, ect) on a spread sheet. I put the totals as a footnote on my resume separate from my logbook totals.. When it's all said and done I still flew the airplane I just can't legally log the time.

It's experience one way or the other so use it to your advantage...you don't have to throw it out just because it's not in your logbook.

uboatdriver

Having internet problems. I didn't see the lack of an OPSPEC, only the lack of the type requiring an SIC. He could log SIC if they don't have the 135.105 exemption or a working autopilot. Regardless of what the actual PIC put in his logbook, the sole manipulator is the ONLY pilot that can log PIC.

Interesting fact that probably doesn't apply: Some 200s and 300s required a second pilot.

USMCFLYR

In what manner? As discussed previously regarding OPSECs or in some other manner? In my operation (flying 300s) it is required, but that is mission driven, not airplane driven.

jarretk

rickair7777 pretty much nailed it, I was doing 91 stuff and didn't know anything about 135 work until I had flown 85 hours at which time I stopped logging the time I flew with them. Ops Specs don't require a 2nd pilot unless the autopilot is broken, and not 135 check was given. I don't even want to log 91 legs as PIC because I was just there swinging the gear and radios/flying occasionally so don't know the systems that well. I think my best option is making one logbook entry and taking out all that time. Luckily no ATP ride was taken so I can get 25 hours instructing fairly quickly and have ATP mins. Ill probably rewrite my logbook because I don't think I can stand a messy logbook forever.

uboatdriver

I agree its not really loggable in that case. Don't bother with rewriting your logbook, just take rickair's advice.