Leaving Emirates, which major to go to?
06-06-2016, 03:51 PM
#121
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 417
Originally Posted by captjns
You do realize EK also pays housing, and crew transport. Are US Regional pilots provided with the same?
True... 92 hours a month is rough duty, but 4 to 6 sectors a is worse than an single or two sector day. EK is not commutable. But hey, committing in the U.S.? Not much fun either. 4 days off... 1 day to get home. Day 2 to recuperate at home. Day 3 time to worry about the commute back to work. Day 4 the pressure of getting back to work. Oh and the pleasure of sharing a crash pad in a big city with 6 other commuters... That's gotta be fun.
Overseas contracts do offer some perks. 5 star hotel or furnished apartment. Crew transport from home to the airport. Decent per Diems when on the road. Good hotels on the road. Guaranteed travel between work and home on block days off... Sometimes in Business or even First Class depending on rank.
Not the best alternative mor many, but then not the worst either.
True... 92 hours a month is rough duty, but 4 to 6 sectors a is worse than an single or two sector day. EK is not commutable. But hey, committing in the U.S.? Not much fun either. 4 days off... 1 day to get home. Day 2 to recuperate at home. Day 3 time to worry about the commute back to work. Day 4 the pressure of getting back to work. Oh and the pleasure of sharing a crash pad in a big city with 6 other commuters... That's gotta be fun.
Overseas contracts do offer some perks. 5 star hotel or furnished apartment. Crew transport from home to the airport. Decent per Diems when on the road. Good hotels on the road. Guaranteed travel between work and home on block days off... Sometimes in Business or even First Class depending on rank.
Not the best alternative mor many, but then not the worst either.
The transport to work is for EKs benefit not yours. They control the pickup time to ensure you arrive at the airport in time to review the flight plan and conduct the mandatory crew brief, all of which occurs in the 45 minutes before you are legally on duty according to EK. Duty starts 60 min prior to departure which is when you are required to be on the airplane. Consider that when you are scheduled to conduct a turn around flight beginning with a 2 person crew at 2am with a 13 hour duty day and the flight times are longer than the scheduled block time because the "seasonal average" says its legal.
92 hours at a regional is nothing compared to 92 hours at EK. 4-6 sectors in familiar airspace with predictable english speaking ATC conducted at (in most cases) a normal time of day is considerably easier than dealing with multiple accent ATC, with a myriad of different procedures, metric, CPDLC, in flight broadcast, escape maneuvers and drift down profiles, ETOPS planning... and then trying to get peak levels of alertness when landing at 6am after 9 hours in a noisy tube. Then you get to do it all again after 24-48hours offs. Also don't fall asleep in the car home because the guy driving you in on his 12th hour of the 6th day of his 6 12 hour shifts and he may be drifting off too.
Per diem rates have been dropping at EK, somehow the amount crews got in 2012 is more than the amount they are getting in 2015. The do this by negotiating a discount and then adjusting per diem based on that discount. So if you can go to the hotel restaurant and get a plain burger with fries for $2, then thats your per diem for the meal. In some cases they have negotiated free breakfast, which means you don't receive per diem for that meal at all. Never mind that you just flew 6+ hours and it's 8 in the morning at the destination, either you eat the free breakfast or you forfeit that per diem.
Block days off? good luck! Most schedules at EK don't have more than 2 days in a row off. The bid system restricts you to no more than 5 in a row. The bid system also restricts you to no more than 15 days off in a month. You won't get what you bid for anyway since you are only allowed 5 preferences.
Leave- yes they say 42 days, however most pilots are getting less than 30 and a lot of that is forced leave. EK will assign leave in a 4 day block and since leave doesn't have any credit you will still fly 90+ hours in a month with 4 days of leave. Again NO CREDIT FOR LEAVE! EK has managed to cram 85 hours of flying into peoples rosters who have 10 days of leave. No days off before or after leave EK recently sent out a letter telling pilots not to waste 1 of their 5 preferences on this since it just won't happen.
speaking of credit; No credit for ground school, simulators, or anything else EK decides to put on your roster.
Sick calls. You are allowed to self certify sick for 2 days any more requires a visit to the EK run clinic. If the trip you call sick for is 3 days then you will have 2 sick and the last day will be converted to reserve. If the trip was an Ultra Long Range requiring 2 rest days before the trip then 2 of your off days later in the month will be converted to reserve, because the only reason those days were off was for the ULR. Too many sick calls may get you a call from the chief pilot regarding your attendance.
Fatigue calls. Be prepared to submit to sleep apnea testing or possible alcohol saturation testing. Since the reason for fatigue couldn't possibly be the rosters, it must be you failing to manage your rest.
School fees are for 3 kids Maximum. Anymore and you are on your own. The allowance provided doesn't completely cover the cost of the schools much less the additional fees that get piled on or any extra curricular activities. Also the allowance is considered a yearly allowance, so if you resign in June you may have to pay back part of that allowance even though the school year is out.
You think there is stress associated with commuting you should try the stress of knowing that every flight and every simulator could be the one that gets you sent home. There is no union or labor law of any kind that applies to expats in Dubai.
If you really think life is good at EK you should head on over to PPrune and read a few of those threads.
06-06-2016, 04:51 PM
#122
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 2,889
Originally Posted by SEPfield
EK Pay housing or provides it, if you are single and just need a small flat then the allowance will cover that maybe with some left over. If you have a wife and a few kids the allowance will not cover what the typical american considers suitable. If you take the company housing then you are at EKs whim. Such as the case now where guys are being kicked out of their nice villas to be stuffed into much smaller town homes.
The transport to work is for EKs benefit not yours. They control the pickup time to ensure you arrive at the airport in time to review the flight plan and conduct the mandatory crew brief, all of which occurs in the 45 minutes before you are legally on duty according to EK. Duty starts 60 min prior to departure which is when you are required to be on the airplane. Consider that when you are scheduled to conduct a turn around flight beginning with a 2 person crew at 2am with a 13 hour duty day and the flight times are longer than the scheduled block time because the "seasonal average" says its legal.
92 hours at a regional is nothing compared to 92 hours at EK. 4-6 sectors in familiar airspace with predictable english speaking ATC conducted at (in most cases) a normal time of day is considerably easier than dealing with multiple accent ATC, with a myriad of different procedures, metric, CPDLC, in flight broadcast, escape maneuvers and drift down profiles, ETOPS planning... and then trying to get peak levels of alertness when landing at 6am after 9 hours in a noisy tube. Then you get to do it all again after 24-48hours offs. Also don't fall asleep in the car home because the guy driving you in on his 12th hour of the 6th day of his 6 12 hour shifts and he may be drifting off too.
Per diem rates have been dropping at EK, somehow the amount crews got in 2012 is more than the amount they are getting in 2015. The do this by negotiating a discount and then adjusting per diem based on that discount. So if you can go to the hotel restaurant and get a plain burger with fries for $2, then thats your per diem for the meal. In some cases they have negotiated free breakfast, which means you don't receive per diem for that meal at all. Never mind that you just flew 6+ hours and it's 8 in the morning at the destination, either you eat the free breakfast or you forfeit that per diem.
Block days off? good luck! Most schedules at EK don't have more than 2 days in a row off. The bid system restricts you to no more than 5 in a row. The bid system also restricts you to no more than 15 days off in a month. You won't get what you bid for anyway since you are only allowed 5 preferences.
Leave- yes they say 42 days, however most pilots are getting less than 30 and a lot of that is forced leave. EK will assign leave in a 4 day block and since leave doesn't have any credit you will still fly 90+ hours in a month with 4 days of leave. Again NO CREDIT FOR LEAVE! EK has managed to cram 85 hours of flying into peoples rosters who have 10 days of leave. No days off before or after leave EK recently sent out a letter telling pilots not to waste 1 of their 5 preferences on this since it just won't happen.
speaking of credit; No credit for ground school, simulators, or anything else EK decides to put on your roster.
Sick calls. You are allowed to self certify sick for 2 days any more requires a visit to the EK run clinic. If the trip you call sick for is 3 days then you will have 2 sick and the last day will be converted to reserve. If the trip was an Ultra Long Range requiring 2 rest days before the trip then 2 of your off days later in the month will be converted to reserve, because the only reason those days were off was for the ULR. Too many sick calls may get you a call from the chief pilot regarding your attendance.
Fatigue calls. Be prepared to submit to sleep apnea testing or possible alcohol saturation testing. Since the reason for fatigue couldn't possibly be the rosters, it must be you failing to manage your rest.
School fees are for 3 kids Maximum. Anymore and you are on your own. The allowance provided doesn't completely cover the cost of the schools much less the additional fees that get piled on or any extra curricular activities. Also the allowance is considered a yearly allowance, so if you resign in June you may have to pay back part of that allowance even though the school year is out.
You think there is stress associated with commuting you should try the stress of knowing that every flight and every simulator could be the one that gets you sent home. There is no union or labor law of any kind that applies to expats in Dubai.
If you really think life is good at EK you should head on over to PPrune and read a few of those threads.
The transport to work is for EKs benefit not yours. They control the pickup time to ensure you arrive at the airport in time to review the flight plan and conduct the mandatory crew brief, all of which occurs in the 45 minutes before you are legally on duty according to EK. Duty starts 60 min prior to departure which is when you are required to be on the airplane. Consider that when you are scheduled to conduct a turn around flight beginning with a 2 person crew at 2am with a 13 hour duty day and the flight times are longer than the scheduled block time because the "seasonal average" says its legal.
92 hours at a regional is nothing compared to 92 hours at EK. 4-6 sectors in familiar airspace with predictable english speaking ATC conducted at (in most cases) a normal time of day is considerably easier than dealing with multiple accent ATC, with a myriad of different procedures, metric, CPDLC, in flight broadcast, escape maneuvers and drift down profiles, ETOPS planning... and then trying to get peak levels of alertness when landing at 6am after 9 hours in a noisy tube. Then you get to do it all again after 24-48hours offs. Also don't fall asleep in the car home because the guy driving you in on his 12th hour of the 6th day of his 6 12 hour shifts and he may be drifting off too.
Per diem rates have been dropping at EK, somehow the amount crews got in 2012 is more than the amount they are getting in 2015. The do this by negotiating a discount and then adjusting per diem based on that discount. So if you can go to the hotel restaurant and get a plain burger with fries for $2, then thats your per diem for the meal. In some cases they have negotiated free breakfast, which means you don't receive per diem for that meal at all. Never mind that you just flew 6+ hours and it's 8 in the morning at the destination, either you eat the free breakfast or you forfeit that per diem.
Block days off? good luck! Most schedules at EK don't have more than 2 days in a row off. The bid system restricts you to no more than 5 in a row. The bid system also restricts you to no more than 15 days off in a month. You won't get what you bid for anyway since you are only allowed 5 preferences.
Leave- yes they say 42 days, however most pilots are getting less than 30 and a lot of that is forced leave. EK will assign leave in a 4 day block and since leave doesn't have any credit you will still fly 90+ hours in a month with 4 days of leave. Again NO CREDIT FOR LEAVE! EK has managed to cram 85 hours of flying into peoples rosters who have 10 days of leave. No days off before or after leave EK recently sent out a letter telling pilots not to waste 1 of their 5 preferences on this since it just won't happen.
speaking of credit; No credit for ground school, simulators, or anything else EK decides to put on your roster.
Sick calls. You are allowed to self certify sick for 2 days any more requires a visit to the EK run clinic. If the trip you call sick for is 3 days then you will have 2 sick and the last day will be converted to reserve. If the trip was an Ultra Long Range requiring 2 rest days before the trip then 2 of your off days later in the month will be converted to reserve, because the only reason those days were off was for the ULR. Too many sick calls may get you a call from the chief pilot regarding your attendance.
Fatigue calls. Be prepared to submit to sleep apnea testing or possible alcohol saturation testing. Since the reason for fatigue couldn't possibly be the rosters, it must be you failing to manage your rest.
School fees are for 3 kids Maximum. Anymore and you are on your own. The allowance provided doesn't completely cover the cost of the schools much less the additional fees that get piled on or any extra curricular activities. Also the allowance is considered a yearly allowance, so if you resign in June you may have to pay back part of that allowance even though the school year is out.
You think there is stress associated with commuting you should try the stress of knowing that every flight and every simulator could be the one that gets you sent home. There is no union or labor law of any kind that applies to expats in Dubai.
If you really think life is good at EK you should head on over to PPrune and read a few of those threads.
Hook, line, sinker.
If the job were so great, I guess senior CAs wouldn't be bailing by the droves.
06-06-2016, 04:58 PM
#123
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,898
Originally Posted by Al Czervik
I know you were thinking of jumping ship. You thinking EK?
Last edited by ShyGuy; 06-06-2016 at 05:13 PM.
06-06-2016, 05:12 PM
#124
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2005
Posts: 8,898
Originally Posted by contrails
My point, which went over your head, is that the perks of schooling and transportation are only 'perks' because of where you have to get yourself to live.
In other words, they're merely taking care of two items that would cause one to find themselves in a predicament in Dubai.
Neither are an issue in "podunk" where I apparently live, which is 25 minutes from a class B airport with an enormous base and walking distance to a big ten university.
Housing allowance? That's nice . . . but do you keep any of it? Or is it just dust in the wind when you pack up and leave Dubai? This money I mentioned to you that is property taxes, not only pays for an unlimited amount of kids in a school district, but also has money going into the value of the house/property.
Thus, when you consider "Podunk USA" gets your kids to school included in what you pay in a mortgage, a housing allowance and free schooling aren't such a perk in comparison -- considering where you have to live to get them.
In other words, they're merely taking care of two items that would cause one to find themselves in a predicament in Dubai.
Neither are an issue in "podunk" where I apparently live, which is 25 minutes from a class B airport with an enormous base and walking distance to a big ten university.
Housing allowance? That's nice . . . but do you keep any of it? Or is it just dust in the wind when you pack up and leave Dubai? This money I mentioned to you that is property taxes, not only pays for an unlimited amount of kids in a school district, but also has money going into the value of the house/property.
Thus, when you consider "Podunk USA" gets your kids to school included in what you pay in a mortgage, a housing allowance and free schooling aren't such a perk in comparison -- considering where you have to live to get them.
As for their changing terms and conditions, that's something their management has to figure out. Obviously changing conditions for the worse is bad for their pilot group. It's all supply and demand, just like it is here. Regionals had a glut of applicants 10 years ago and could afford to do crap like no pay for training, make 19/hr 1st year, etc. Now with the ATP rule and lack of people entering this industry, you have regionals paying sign on bonuses of 15k and pushing first year RJ salaries to 50k in some cases. It's simple supply and demand. If EK sees mass exodus and lack of applicants coming in, they'll drop the mins (already did) or change the package to attract pilots.
Not sure why guys here get all worked up over American pilots at EK. There are no shortages of crappy airlines all around the world that are shrinking or failing, and they will always supply the ME3 with a pool of pilots. And lets be honest, most of the American pilots that went to EK did so in the post 2001-furluogh era and the 2008-2010 recession time (including this ex-Mesa pilot). With the amount of hiring going on in the US last year and this year, you can probably count on one hand how many American pilots went to Emirates. The Americans are not the problem. And if any of them want to come back, then we should welcome them. I've flown with an ex-EK pilot who's now an A320 CA here. Top notch guy, very highly qualified.
06-06-2016, 08:41 PM
#125
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,785
Originally Posted by SEPfield
If you really think life is good at EK you should head on over to PPrune and read a few of those threads.
WRT to PPrune why is any discussion of Etihad forbidden?
06-06-2016, 09:48 PM
#126
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B-737NG preferably in first class with a glass of champagne and caviar
Posts: 5,912
Originally Posted by Flytolive
Thanks for the detailed glimpse into life at EK. You'd never know from the fashionable Captain's PR ploys.
WRT to PPrune why is any discussion of Etihad forbidden?
WRT to PPrune why is any discussion of Etihad forbidden?
A few years back, employees of EH posted negative information about the airline. EH wanted the identical of the negative posters. At first PPrune said "Pound sand!". Then the specter of law suits came. PPrune caved and sold the posters down the river when EH threatened them with a lawsuit. Beware what you post on some boards as it my not be as anonymous as you may think... especially when the owners of some boards feet are held to the fire.
06-07-2016, 09:20 AM
#127
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
Nah I only considered them back in 2010/2011 for obvious reasons. Today I'd only leave for AA/DL/UA, although I think the new combined merged airline has a lot of potential.
So, which airline are you working for now..............if not EK
06-07-2016, 09:22 PM
#129
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2015
Position: Captain
Posts: 1,561
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
Same one I've been at since 2012 that has recently been acquired by another airline here.
Well that merger will be good for you I think
It is a great Airline and pays well with a good retirement
Best of luck and I would not jump to a legacy if I was you
Hell you are in a legacy and better off than the boys at EK for sure
06-08-2016, 06:40 AM
#130
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 522
Originally Posted by ShyGuy
Again, you are attempting to equate the living conditions of two different countries and trying to say that 12k is the same earnings as it is here in the US. That just isn't the case. You have only mentioned property taxes of 6k, how about federal, state, social, and medicare. That's easily 30k+ for a lot of pilots. The salary in the UAE is tax-free and as a US citizen, I believe you're allowed 114k free before then having to pay US taxes on the rest. It's not a simple apples-apples comparison. As has been discounted by several EK pilots, it was not just a "12k" per month.
As for their changing terms and conditions, that's something their management has to figure out. Obviously changing conditions for the worse is bad for their pilot group. It's all supply and demand, just like it is here. Regionals had a glut of applicants 10 years ago and could afford to do crap like no pay for training, make 19/hr 1st year, etc. Now with the ATP rule and lack of people entering this industry, you have regionals paying sign on bonuses of 15k and pushing first year RJ salaries to 50k in some cases. It's simple supply and demand. If EK sees mass exodus and lack of applicants coming in, they'll drop the mins (already did) or change the package to attract pilots.
Not sure why guys here get all worked up over American pilots at EK. There are no shortages of crappy airlines all around the world that are shrinking or failing, and they will always supply the ME3 with a pool of pilots. And lets be honest, most of the American pilots that went to EK did so in the post 2001-furluogh era and the 2008-2010 recession time (including this ex-Mesa pilot). With the amount of hiring going on in the US last year and this year, you can probably count on one hand how many American pilots went to Emirates. The Americans are not the problem. And if any of them want to come back, then we should welcome them. I've flown with an ex-EK pilot who's now an A320 CA here. Top notch guy, very highly qualified.
As for their changing terms and conditions, that's something their management has to figure out. Obviously changing conditions for the worse is bad for their pilot group. It's all supply and demand, just like it is here. Regionals had a glut of applicants 10 years ago and could afford to do crap like no pay for training, make 19/hr 1st year, etc. Now with the ATP rule and lack of people entering this industry, you have regionals paying sign on bonuses of 15k and pushing first year RJ salaries to 50k in some cases. It's simple supply and demand. If EK sees mass exodus and lack of applicants coming in, they'll drop the mins (already did) or change the package to attract pilots.
Not sure why guys here get all worked up over American pilots at EK. There are no shortages of crappy airlines all around the world that are shrinking or failing, and they will always supply the ME3 with a pool of pilots. And lets be honest, most of the American pilots that went to EK did so in the post 2001-furluogh era and the 2008-2010 recession time (including this ex-Mesa pilot). With the amount of hiring going on in the US last year and this year, you can probably count on one hand how many American pilots went to Emirates. The Americans are not the problem. And if any of them want to come back, then we should welcome them. I've flown with an ex-EK pilot who's now an A320 CA here. Top notch guy, very highly qualified.
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