Heard a rumor that they tried to have a new hire class of 2 this month. They ended cancelling it because only one showed up. Don’t come here. No new planes coming. No new contract coming. 20+ years to upgrade.
Seriously, any other flying job is better than ABX.

No rumor...fact. DS killed this company

Also, we are still living in the Stone Age. Everything this company does is by force! I’m surprised Hete hasn’t bought a printing press and returned all our iPads.


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Don’t give them any ideas. We are slowly dragging them kicking and screaming into the 20th century. (Yes I know it’s the 21st.)

Hete is not an airline/cargo guy. He’s an accountant —not an operator. Soap is a used car salesman— nothing more.

I thought Soaper painted houses?

I’m seriously jealous. He goes from a house painter to president of an airline. An airline where he has to do absolutely nothing. The only requirement for the job, is to use the word “no” In negotiations.

Even I could do that.

https://www.atsginc.com/Press-Releases/2019/pr2019-04-30.html


5 new AC to ABX

Wrong. Extension to existing leases. No new deliveries in the works for ABX.

Atlas and ABX just ran a 50 foot sign right in front of Jeff Bezos that said ready to strike ! No aircraft anytime soon without a contract. They don't want to pay. Nothing to see here except more new hire washouts!

ATSG
AAWW

Were the ATI pilots on hand to kiss his a@@?

Nothing like a truly-meaningless gesture to keep the troops amped up -- maybe they won't notice that they're not gonna see a contract for the next few years as talks grind on in part because of Atlas litigation spawned by an extreme negotiating position.

And yet Atlas continues to take contracts from other airlines (like K4) and will have a slew of 737s for Amazon through Southern. They will have no problem staffing those aircraft because they don't care who is in the cockpit.

ABX is the only 1224 carrier that is taking it on the chin. They are putting themselves out of jobs to help the folks at Atlas.

I have said repeatedly that the accident in Houston could just as well have been a planeload of troops. AMC should be seriously thinking about standing Atlas down and redistributing their military flying to other carriers, including the major airline team members via an activation if necessary. If it's as bad as the Atlas pilots say -- and it appears that it is given what happened aboard the accident aircraft -- AMC has no business putting soldiers on those aircraft. I don't expect much from the FAA until there is a bunch of civilian blood spilled, which is unlikely, but AMC ought to be horrified. Maybe after the preliminary NTSB report, which I expect to be brutal.

But for now, Billy and his ilk are telling the shareholders that his strategy is working while he beats Connie and others (including ABX) on price and continues to grow his business.

Sad truth: The Prelim has already been issued by the NTSB. It simply didn't contain any useful information.

I'll let you read into that what you may.

A meaningless gesture, yet if you google Amazon Air along with the CVG airport, half the press articles and news reports are about the pilots being underpaid and overworked, in part, causing the subcontractor airlines to be in a severely unsafe situation. Meaningless, yet you are talking about it too.

"There is no such thing as bad publicity." P.T. Barnum

I have read enough of your posts across multiple forums to observe your extreme anti-union viewpoint. It intrigues me that you are obviously an extreme aviation fan but so anti-pilot. After all, who do you think makes up the union that you speak of?

I find it interesting to read that you find the Atlas pilot group negotiating position to be extreme when we simply want the same pay and work rules as the rest of our colleagues in the industry already enjoy. If that position is too extreme and management elitist egos push this contentious situation on for another few years, as you suggest, you will see free market forces completely destroy this airline and it will be an absolute miracle if there aren't multiple aircraft crashes along the way. Hopefully the next one that crashes ends up in the swamp as well and not into an elementary school or a neighborhood.

In the aviation world, where airline management talent seems to be far and few between, it is always funny to observe how free market is preached and cheered on when it favors a management agenda but it is feverishly fought against when the free market goes against what management wants. Adam Smith wins every time and this situation will be no different.

Either the talentless management teams of AAWW and ATSG come to terms with reality or they end up running their companies into the ground. Maybe somebody needs to pick up the phone and call Bryan Bedford. I am sure he has a fresh life lesson he can share.

Don't confuse reporting with action. A lot of ink gets spilled over a lot of things. Very few read it, and only a small fraction care. None of it is likely to translate into anything meaningful to anyone.

Yes, we're talking about it. But that's about it. Nobody else is, because nobody cares outside of those directly involved.

I give the Alaska pilots a hard time because they're fond of their orange lanyards. The pilots are convinced that management hates the orange lanyards, as if that will spur them to action. Big deal. It's a meaningless gesture that ultimately changes nothing. Management, for their part, does seem annoyed by them, and I think they're idiots, too, because it's a meaningless gesture.

The only thing any management group responds to is loss of revenue. The rest is just noise.

I say this respectfully: There's a difference between being opposed to self-destructive, pointless union activity that does nothing but entrench the spoiled leaders and pay big $$ to lawyers for years of delay and basically no results that truly benefit the rank and file, and being "anti-union".

I applaud what I think are smart, effective tactics, and criticize ones that are not. That we may disagree about the likely effectiveness and probable outcome doesn't make me an adversary.

You guys are locked in pointless, low probability of success litigation that the company loves because it puts off ever really getting to a contract. Again, it's not strategically-beneficial, it's a result of trying to show who has the bigger set, which isn't a clean route to a result for members.

The way to get Atlas to focus on the legitimate beef of low quality candidates and training is to do what I suggested. Good stuff will result, but of course leaders won't get obvious credit for it, so they would rather follow a different strategy.

The same as everyone else, the leaders want results, period. In a world where big money writes the laws, the overall system is designed to keep airline labor suppressed while forcing the aircraft to continue to move. Don't believe me? Look at the last airline pilot section 6 strike. It was the Spirit strike nine years ago. When airlines are able to drag their feet in negotiations for 6-10 years on contracts that can be negotiated in under one month, there is a problem with the system. In this specific case, people have now died and more will die all so a few at the top can become wealthy to a level beyond what any of us can even comprehend.

We will fight on low probability of success cases as well as high probability of success cases. We will leave no rock unturned. Choosing to just sit idle while our contract gets violated does nothing for us except slowly erode what little benefits we currently have. At Atlas Air, choosing to play nice with management only leads to being taken advantage of. We have years of history prove that point.

This is Eastern Airlines all over again and just like at Eastern, labor never sets the tone.

Well, we disagree about a lot of what you said. I don't see you or I to be a victim of The Man or The System. Rather than be a Social Justice Warrior decrying the system, I would rather work the system -- really any set of rules that applies to me -- in a way that puts the most money in my pocket. Start worrying about showing The Man that you're a man, too, and you will waste a lot of time on things that have nothing to do with compensation.

A scorched-earth policy sounds nice when politically grandstanding, but it costs the members a lot of money and actually delays an outcome, which means that people go a long time at one pay rate when they could be making more money at a pay/rules rate that is not optimal but higher. In my opinion, the more-quickly contracts get turned, across more airlines, the more $$ in members' pockets. Get the deal done, take more compensation, then set up for the next one, while your brethren do the same, thus helping to advance you. I think it plays into management's hands to constantly be at war, but it creates a context for leaders to hold their positions and try to unify troops -- and to shout down differing beliefs. It has been so since the time of Sun Tzu, and certainly Brave New World.

I think better to get the agreement done, spend the lawyer money on wording the contract correctly, and enforce the crystal clear contract provisions through the grievance process. Meanwhile, start working on the next contract.

You can feel free to disagree about strategy, of course. Mine is just an opinion. But I'll bet it's one that's shared among some of the quieter members of your pilot group.

As pilots, I do not view us as a victim at all. I view us as living in a world with a set of rules that are designed to suppress us. It is not bad, it is not good, it is what it is. This just means we have a greater hurdle to overcome. I mean honestly, how much skill does it take to say "no" at every negotiation session for years while reaping the benefits of cheap labor? The playing field isn't level and I won't play victim, I will work to change the playing field.

I see a common assumption you make about assuming unions constantly engage in political grandstanding as well. There is none. We simply aren't interested in it. I see no benefit in engaging in it and don't get the point of it. Your mileage may vary.

A smaller deal now is better than a bigger deal later....what you are describing is called a time value of money proposition. I understand it well. In order to have a time value of money comparison, one has to have an offer now versus a greater hypothetical offer later to compare it to. The common mistake is making the assumption that an offer is on the table. There is not, nor has there ever been an offer on the table. Until an offer is made, you are just describing a fantasy scenario.

Your data tracking on aircraft is impressive, you may want to stick to that and leave the labor relations to those better suited for it.

I think that's a compliment; I really don't care which side of the hand it came from. So...thanks!!

As to the rest, I feel like you are "making a common assumption" that anybody who disagrees with a certain party line or questions the strategy pursued by certain leaders must not know what they're talking about. That's fine. And expected. I'm not gonna roll out my CV to show what I'm "suited for" or not. Because this isn't about me; it's about the idea I put out there.

I'm only offering my opinion because I have watched you guys expend a lot of energy for zero results for a long time. I think there's an opportunity here to cure an actual safety issue and get you more of what you're looking for. That's all it is. If people think the idea has merit, great. If not, oh well.

I got my first choice this month of flying lines. However, I was taken off due to training and my entire line was changed. Now instead of having no overnights in cvg, I have 4 nights in a hotel at my own cost. I bid lines with minimum layovers in cvg for a reason. To save money on hotels.
If you’re considering coming here, you should figure on added hotel costs.

If I were to go over to the other website and start posting about how all future 767 deliveries are going to be stopped at ATSG and replaced with SR-71s and Cessna Caravans, that is not me disagreeing with the party line (whatever the party line is anyway), it would be me talking about something I have no clue about and I would just be flat out wrong.

Look man, with all due respect, you have certain preconceived notions about the Atlas and ABX pilot group that you share with us from time to time and they are flat out wrong. Your perception is off. I am not sure where your anger, mistrust, frustration, or whatever it is comes from, but you are spreading misinformation and it makes you look bad. That is not some kind of party line, it is my opinion that I share with you and if I am sharing it, you can bet others are thinking it. Your views on this topic are no different than me talking on the other site about the ATI Sr-71s coming that I saw being converted to freighters in Pinal Airpark last week.

I'd like to drill down on these two points.

First, the safety issue is a valid and real concern. The problem is, due to the ongoing investigation there are very few usable FACTS. Everyone outside of the investigation has opinions and hunches, but you cannot leverage opinions and hunches into immediate fixes or stand downs. Thus, it will be business as usual until the official report is completed (notwithstanding the increasing reports of failures coming from the Training Dept).

Secondly, "more of what we're looking for" is exactly what we're getting! We are challenging the company head on with respect to their stubborn insistence that we either amalgamate or we'll sue you to amalgamate.

The company continues to tell investors "this is a process". No, this is shuck and jive they SELL to the investors.

This pilot group has rights under the RLA to bargain fairly, but has been scammed out of those rights from the very day the holding company was established.

They only way to get "more of what we're looking for" is to directly challenge the amalgamation in the courts so it doesn't happen again.

That indeed is a "process". This is fighting fire with fire. So you may laugh at the message on a mobile billboard, but that's just for the media photo ops and soundbites on stations like, you know, CNBC, Business Insider, The Washington Post, ALL the SEA media stations...

Unfortunately for the pilots, customers and investors, the real fight will be in the courtroom.

See, I think you're missing an opportunity. AMC most certainly can investigate anything it wants at any time, as can Congress. AMC/Congress doesn't need a final NTSB report before it can investigate hiring standards, training standards, and operational errors. The investigation, and what it is finding, is often enough to propel management into a "we're fixing it" mode.

[QUOTE=wjcandee;2822429]See, I think you're missing an opportunity. AMC most certainly can investigate anything it wants at any time, as can Congress. AMC/Congress doesn't need a final NTSB report before it can investigate hiring standards, training standards, and operational errors. The investigation, and what it is finding, is often enough to propel management into a "we're fixing it" mode.[/QUOT

This is a ABX interview thread not one of the many Atlas threads
stick to the topic -- as usual it has turned into a Atlas one

This is in fact an ABX thread. So we should move our concerns to another one.

But just one thing, do you realize that Atlas trains the 89th crews to fly Air Force One? The military is probably closer to the training dept than you realize.

I think this discussion has run its course anyway.

FWIW, I did know that -- or at least I knew that they did so at one time -- but, you're right, I wasn't thinking of that point as we discussed this. It's potentially yet another angle for you guys. Atlas does the Doomsday Plane crew training as well.

And just to close the loop on the "litigation" discussion here, and end my participation in all of this, my own feeling is that Gleason makes a very fine presentation in court, in general and in the current litigation. He has precisely the right demeanor for an appearance before the Second Circuit. The O'Melveny guy comes off as a bit agitated and sweaty. A lot of Big Firm guys don't get a lot of stand-up appellate time, so that's not that unusual. I don't think that Gleason got his butt handed to him in oral argument, as some have suggested, and I think you can only handicap a result about half the time from the questions asked, but looking at it as objectively as possible, the creative arguments he raised probably have a low probability of success and the Court did zero in on some of the key questions. This is only Step 1 of many anyway, deciding whether the question of whether the contracts govern the issue of merging lists under these circumstances goes to arbitration. Which is why, absent a negotiated overall solution, this is going to be interminable for you guys.

After a year, the answer would still be NO!

HR is still getting guys and lying right to their faces. The company wont even accept the economics of ABX being cheaper than ATI, but the they’re so hard on for ATI. People! Why do you keep showing up?! [emoji351] Are they telling guys a contract is “right around the corner?” Or “so many news planes that are going to be on property in only a few months.” They’re lies people!!!

Do they need to phone a friend? Or do they not know how to use a computer?

Yes, people are still wanting to wait it out on either side of the list. (No one is calling and chasing lateral moves just get annoying) This could be the biggest waste of your life...all for a 76 type and to fly 200 hrs a year.

The company wants to make this place worse than everywhere else. They want to cut vacation, cut all soft pay, forced overtime with zero reward...all while continuing to put you in a middle seat next to the crapper. You will need a crashpad, don’t forget. Living at the DHL hub...its just sad sometimes. JRM is only 130-150% above straight pay btw. And man do guys love doing overtime for straight pay. Love it!!! They gobble it up. The pay here is so low that a number of new hires probably have to.

ABX is not the best kept secret in aviation, its a never ending nightmare of disappointment. Motorclutch is retired, but i’m sure he’d still take your calls.

You want ABX news...No new news. The company refuses to negotiate or consider any real solutions to problems. Can’t believe people hired these guys to just warm a seat in an office and use the word “No.”


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ATI is hiring. Both under the ATSG umbrella, but completely different companies.

ABX Interview - Is it worth it?
 

Yeah go there. Rumor over here is, ATI is getting all the DHL and AZ tails starting soon from Atlas. That should make it less than a 6 month upgrade.

Remember these names: Dave Soaper, Patrick Flugelman, and VP Maloney. All came from loser airlines and their lack of talent truly shows! If you take a job at ABX you are dumber than a box of hammer!

Well, I think that Maloney is perhaps the only one that does anything. The other two have probably never made it to CVG, have no idea where building 6 is (or what) and probably would drive to Lunken. Thats in Cincy too, right? Maloney does a good job of doing face time with his employees. He goes to the hub at 3 am sometimes. Pat works from home and Dave shows up at 10am 2 days a week.


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As it was told too me Soapy told so many lies and threats he doesn't have anymore so he just dosent speak. His behavior is obviously what atsg wants because they surely know by now with his lack of progress and no respect from any Department.

What does Soaper actually do?

It’s ironic when Soapy first came he stated he would put ATI out of business. I explained to him that Joe Hete owns the whipsaw, not him. In jest I said, “you will do what Joe lets you do”. He didn’t like that. Lol

ABX Air is now in the enviable market position of having an experienced, proud, exceptionally-competent group of pilots who have extra time and availability (although that is being taken up to some extent with additional aircraft-hours for Amazon), available time on existing 767 aircraft, and a platform that can scale up pretty-quickly if the labor issues are ever settled. Lower tier operators like Northern and (ugh) 21Air can't touch this. Despite the toxic work environment, ABX pilots are doing the actual job with a great deal of competence. There's an opportunity there to the extent that a future customer wants high-reliability lift quickly. I understand that it would have to be customer-driven given the success rate of the current ABX sales force, but it should be something that is well-known in the business. There has been talk about major online retailers sniffing around private air networks on a much-more-limited scale than Amazon, and to the extent that they want to move quickly, ABX has a leg up.

So the ATI people are salivating at the possibility of taking food off the plates of Atlas pilots? We've already seen what you guys did with ABX. Even if the rumors are true, I'd keep quiet and not broadcast it on a public forum. It doesn't make you look cool, even if fitting.

I am not sure if ATI folks care about looking cool...its all about whatever is good for me. They also don't care about crossing picket lines either. Hell...its in their contract they will not honor them!

You mean broadcast what everyone already knows? I don’t need to look cool. I’m just reiterating.

But guess what? It was a lie. No one knows what anyone is getting. All I know is people still seem to be showing up to class at ABX despite what is available to them on the internet or by calling a friend. Based on recent history, ATI will get them. You will be going from 300 to 400 pilots by the end of the year. Are you just hiring to do airport reserve with us? [emoji38]

Just don’t come around 5 years from now looking for reparations or apologies. Definitely no one will know what you’re talking about.


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I doubt I will be... Do I know you from Mesa?