4dalulz

I mean - someones gonna get eaten - at least with a union you know where you stand. I'm cautious of non-union shops but don't write them off entirely.

The Dominican

Hopefully we can put an end to the thread drift.

But that's precisely my point, a lot of folks here haven't actually experienced a proper downturn in the industry. The pandemic was such a strange event that affected aviation, but the effects were luckily short term. And it has been almost 23 years since 9/11, so many folks here that have 10 or 15 years in the industry have experienced a career of advancement mostly, that advancement and salary gains have been a product of the unions without a doubt.

But many of us were flying commercially on the downturn of 89, we suffer personally the effects of the demise of Eastern, Braniff, Pan Am, later on TWA. We saw the degradation and in some cases total loss of pensions. Tens of thousands of pilots displaced and it took a solid decade before things started to turn around. Then 9/11 was another blow to thousands of jobs and benefits.

When things go south that dramatically, you're screwed, union shop or not. I hope that we don't get to experience something like that again, but history tends to repeat itself. Just want to illustrate people that although unions are always better, they are NOT a shield that guarantees employment nor will they protect you from the effects of downturns.

As far as NAL and a union goes, the cabin crew are represented by a union. So on the pilots side. Who knows? Remember that just a couple of years ago this company was less than half the size. The talk is that apparently we got another 74 coming soon and the projection for business looks good. If they want to continue to grow and become a player, representation will almost for sure become a topic of conversation. I personally don't know if there are talks or not. I've only been here shy of a year.

For now, things are going well. Now, come Monday..! Who the hell knows.

ArJockey

Good morning, any idea about payscale for FO on B744 fleet?

thanks

Hawkerdriver1

$120 year 1
$140 year 2
$160 year 3
$165 year 4....

Days off typically pays 200% or sometimes even 300%. Deadhead normally 50% of hourly. 100% on days off. But, I left almost a year ago.


HD

ArJockey

thanks HD. What was a typical month? How many hours? Or you cannot say hours because of that 50% 200%, etc...?? Average monthly income in your first year with them?

cheers

ObadiahDogberry

Haven't been here too long, but averaging 121 hours total credit time per month so far. That includes regular block hours, incentive pay (200%, sometimes 300%), regular deadhead pay (50%), incentive deadhead pay (100%, sometimes 150%), and rig pay. Some months are super, and although only happened once so far, some months are right at guarantee.

ArJockey

thanks Obadiah Dogberry

Between ATLAS and NATIONAL which one would you choose?
Being ex military (foreigner) helps?

ObadiahDogberry

I have no experience with Atlas, so I have nothing to make the comparison outside of what I have heard. I like the global home basing with National vs. the domestic US only "Gateway Travel" system at Atlas. With National, day one starts at home, and day 17 (or whatever day you finish) ends at home (UTC time), pretty much anywhere in the world with a mid-sized airport. With Atlas, the gateway travel occurs on your off days from my understanding, and it is only available in the lower 48 States. Technically Atlas' gateway travel program can be considered a taxible benefit as the company is providing you travel from your home to your base, although I do not believe anyone has been hit with those taxes yet. With National, since you base is your home, they are not providing a taxible benefit. Atlas is a much larger company, and with a union, so I think there are some advantages there. I believe they have stricter rules for flight and duty time. National operates under the 121.523 rules, which means up to 30 hours of continuous duty, and some short rest in between duties. It is rare that I have had more than 20-22 straight hours of duty, but it does happen. And it has been rare that I only get ten hours of rest before a duty, but it is also not unheard of. IMHO the weakest parts of National are poor retirement/401K options, terrible rig rules (you can be on duty for hours, have a flight get cancelled, and end up with nothing to show for it), and loose rules regarding deadhead travel (regarding premium economy/business/middle seats). But National has a very aggressive owner who also owns a freight forwarding agency, so there are a lot of opportunites and I think job security is pretty good. You can make a ton of $$$$ if you are willing to work hard.

If National upped the 401K matching to close what Atlas/Kalitta provide, added some rig protections so that you were protected for delays or sitting around (there is a rig, but it only starts after you have been sitting for 24.5 hours after the completion of a duty. If you had 24 hours rest, then report for duty, sit for 12 hours doing nothing, then get cancelled, and head back to the hotel for another 24 hours, you have nothing to show for those 60 hours. Again, very rare, but not unheard of. IMHO there needs to be some protections for stuff like that), and made business class standard for all deadhead travel to duty (in excess of four hours IMHO), and premium economy or better for deadheads home, then you would have a very good thing going. Other guys here might have some different opinions.

astray

You're right mostly about Gateway. However, currently it's free for all US states, not just the lower 48, and if you have an international address the company offers you $1250 one way getting to and back from work. Certain bases (IAH, JFK come to mind) have lines that only make you travel on Day 1 and 17.

ArJockey

So, main difference is Union. And pay in National is higher due to extended duty times well above industry...