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Old 05-26-2019, 06:04 AM   #11  
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I spent 15 years at a Regional. 15 years of a 4 on, 2 off schedule, hauling United’s trash. 15 years of commuting. 15 years of getting bumped. 15 years of “BIG news is coming”. 15 years of being looked down upon and treated as such because I was “just” a regional pilot. 15 years of watching lesser qualified pilots go to the majors because they volunteer at the soup kitchen, instead of spending time with their own family.

I’m not here to sway you one way or the other. It’s obvious where I currently stand. I’m not at Atlas, I’m awaiting OE at another ACMI carrier. Many of the same guys I flew with in my previous life are at Atlas, and wouldn’t have it any other way.

I was young and dumb when I started in this career. I was hired by my previous employer at 21. I expected a big, glamorous job at the airlines. Unfortunately, passengers are loud, obnoxious, and feel like they’re owed the world with their Expedia ticket deal. Loud businessman flaunt their status like they own the airplane.

No thanks. I’ll take my 16/14 rotation any day of the week.
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Old 05-26-2019, 06:06 AM   #12  
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Originally Posted by SaltyDog View Post
Not sure your"big 5"
If FedEx and/or UPS are in the 5, you would be kissing those two companies goodbye permanently.
Those 2 companies HR departments would conclude you prefer pax lifestyle over non pax.
UPS has hired dozens upon dozens of Atlas pilots. Not sure how many FedEx has hired, but am sure many hired.
If not interested in those 2 companies, then a pax move may be best. Not sure PSA would be best, but wish you a good journey.
I enthusiastically disagree with this assessment.
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Old 05-26-2019, 06:32 AM   #13  
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I enthusiastically disagree with this assessment.

details? case history? Good for OP to see the counter argument.Its good for all for future reference.
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Old 05-26-2019, 06:34 AM   #14  
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QOL?
Stay with Atlas.
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Old 05-26-2019, 06:35 AM   #15  
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This might be a stupid question for some of you but here we go. I’m a 30 year old, married, no kids, Atlas 747 FO, been here for a little over 6 months. Obviously most of you know the current working environment at Atlas. Recently I received a job offer from PSA (AA regional airline), so the question is what would you guys do. If I move to PSA, based on some research and talking to other PSA pilots chances are that I may flow to American Airlines in about 5-7 years. So I can get to American Airlines before I hit my 40s (of course we can't predict the future, don't know if PSA or AA will be around for another 5-7 years). On the other hand if I stay with Atlas I can get heavy time (no really a lot), hopefully upgrade in another 3 years and just keep hoping that soon we can get a new contract with better pay which nobody knows how long it is going to take (it could be months or years). I'm flexible with bases and schedules, more concern about: Pay, Quality of life, Benefits and Job security. Of course while I fly for Atlas or move to PSA I'll keep updating my apps for the big 5. Thank you all and don't be too hard on me.
The 5-7 year flow to AA at any of the Wholly Owned regionals is something between a pipe dream and a flat out lie perpetrated for recruitment. The fastest flow to AA is sitting at right under 10 years for new Hires depending on how many classes AA runs each year (less classes = longer flow). PSAs flow is in the 12-15 Year point depending on outside attrition.

It will take 3-4 years before you’re a line holding captain at PSA and able to use the features of the SAP to boost your QOL. That being said you’ll log more hours than you would at Atlas, if that’s important to you.

I know at least one AA WO pilot who got feedback from the UPS folks that they’re looking for widebody international PIC time from his resume to make it competitive. How much of that is individual specific and not a universal truth? I’m not sure but he won’t be logging any of that at one of the AA Wholly Owned regionals.

If you like the Atlas lifestyle, stay there or go to another ACMI. If you don’t go to PSA. Don’t think PSA will get you to a major airline job any quicker though.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:18 AM   #16  
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This might be a stupid question for some of you but here we go. I’m a 30 year old, married, no kids, Atlas 747 FO, been here for a little over 6 months. Obviously most of you know the current working environment at Atlas. Recently I received a job offer from PSA (AA regional airline), so the question is what would you guys do. If I move to PSA, based on some research and talking to other PSA pilots chances are that I may flow to American Airlines in about 5-7 years. So I can get to American Airlines before I hit my 40s (of course we can't predict the future, don't know if PSA or AA will be around for another 5-7 years). On the other hand if I stay with Atlas I can get heavy time (no really a lot), hopefully upgrade in another 3 years and just keep hoping that soon we can get a new contract with better pay which nobody knows how long it is going to take (it could be months or years). I'm flexible with bases and schedules, more concern about: Pay, Quality of life, Benefits and Job security. Of course while I fly for Atlas or move to PSA I'll keep updating my apps for the big 5. Thank you all and don't be too hard on me.
Depends on your resume... Do you have 1000 Turbine PIC and a Degree? I'd stay at Atlas in that scenario... Without it I'd go to PSA.

It'll take you 7 years to get 1000 PIC at Atlas right now if you're only 6 months in. If you don't have the degree then good luck getting it while you're gone from home 18 days a month.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:22 AM   #17  
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Tough call. Atlas will get a contract, how good remains to be seen. If it at least comes close to Kalitta or Omni you may regret going to PSA for 7 years.
If you’re saying you upgrade in 3 years, assuming a new decent CBA, you’re walking away from $200+k a year....
going to PSA you’ll be under $60 until making Captain, then under $100k a few more years, then up to around $120k if you work OT for the rest while waiting to flow. Meanwhile you gave away at least 5 years at $200+k a year.
I’d make a spreadsheet using the ATI payscale vs the PSA payscale with your best guess at upgrade times. Then use the AA group 2 scale for everything after year 7, figure 3-7 as an FO before upgrading to CA and back onto reserve.
I say use the ATI payscale because I’m pretty sure Atlas will do better, much better, so it’s a safer comparison. Use the Omni payscales if you’re optimistic.
Factor in commuting/jumpseating if you don’t live in Base, which also means crashpads and going in a day early or staying a day late to commute when needed. No hotels in base at AA for cancellations.

I think you will most likely get street hired at AA long before you will ever flow. Start attending job fairs and network your tail off. Volunteer on one of the union or company safety committees. The big 6 need to hire more pilots over the next ten years than there are pilots in the entire regional industry. This assumes you also have a degree. They will eventually drop the requirement, but not right away. United already has it as a preference, not requirement, but the ones hired without it are very very very few. That could make PSA more viable. If you really want AA, I’d move to Dallas and go to a Envoy. With your existing 121 time you’d be a quick upgrade minimizing the time on crappy regional FO pay. Living in Base makes it a completely different job. Do not - DO NOT - commute for a regional. The QOL drop is huge.

Honestly, I’d stay where you are and just really focus on networking, job fairs, volunteering and polishing the resume. You’ll get street hired long before you’ll ever flow. Don’t overlook the LCC’s like JetBlue, Spirit & Frontier. They’ve become real jobs, with real payscales and direct contributions. Going to any one of them now, and you’d never be able to catch up by waiting seven years to flow to AA, then 3-5 more to upgrade and finally get over $200k.
Even with a new CBA at Atlas he's not going to be making that until he's a 747 Captain... That might happen in 7 years... A 50% pay increase would put a 767 FO at around $105k a year on year two.

I'd be looking hard at those LCC's to wait things out instead of staying long term at Atlas... Good advice.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:25 AM   #18  
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Thank you all for your responses. Here's an estimate of how much you should expect to make for anyone that is in a similar situation. This is considering that: Atlas will get a CBA on 2021 (similar to ATI pay scales), and PSA flow to AA in 7 years. Both include hourly pay rates, per diem, no open time or any other soft pay.

Atlas, avg 65 hrs/month
2019: $73000
2020: $89000
2021 "new pay": $116000
2022: $120000
2023 (upgrade): $177000

2024: $183000
2025: $187000
2026: $192000
2027: $198000
2028: $202000
Total for a 10 year period: $1'375000
(Max annual pay after +12 years $213000)

PSA, avg 75hrs/month
2019: $62000 (including $10000 signing bonus)
2020: $91000 (upgrade + $8000 second year bonus)
2021: $85000
2022: $86500
2023: $88000
2024: $90000
2025: $92000
2026: $95000 (AA first year 737/320)
2027: $137000
2028: $160000
Total for a 10 year period: $834000
(Max annual pay after +12 years $320000)
The 747 hasn't expanded at Atlas like the 767 has. He's not going to upgrade in 5 years. Also... As a 7 year 747 Captain I was making $15k south of that while flying hostile so subtract from it.
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Old 05-26-2019, 08:44 AM   #19  
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You won't flow from PSA in 5-7 years. 10-12 more likely.
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Old 05-26-2019, 09:46 AM   #20  
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People talk line all you need is a degree and a pulse and you will automatically get into a legacy carrier. There are a lot of good, personable, educated pilots here at Atlas with clean records who haven't made it onward yet. 80% of my new hire class is still here. So while hiring is great, the are no guarantees.

Worst case scenario you go to PSA and wind up at A A at 42 years old. That gives you 23 years at American. You can still apply to be a street hire for the entire time that you wait to flow.
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