Noworkallplay

[QUOTE=PurpleToolBox;3062170]Even worse, a widebody FO is going to make more than a NB Captain -- especially 777FO and as of late a MD11FO.

This is true at most major airlines. If you are comparing a very JR narrow body Capt. who just does his min schedule to a senior WB FO who hustles and works 25 days a month. Especially with FedEx's hard line bidding like we have (most places don't) and can hold carryover. Its just amusing watching you complaining about everything. Would you like PBS so we dont have senior FO's getting carryover? We could close the gap that way if you would like. Oh we can also get rid of OTP so those senior enough to hold carryover conflicts dont get priority makeup. This would also open the gap like all the legacies who have PBS. Ive played the Legacy game and I can tell you we have much more soft money hints my comment that hourly rate is only part of the factor. I also want top of the industry hourly rates next contract just like we had when we ratified the 2015 CBA.

Sluggo_63

Ok. Your post made me dig up a spreadsheet I did when the 2015 TA was out. I took our TA rates and compared them with the book rates at all the majors at the time for each fleet type and seat. American had just signed their contract and had the highest rates of all the majors at the time.


Here it is:

SaltyDog

Interesting discussions and perceptions.
Some other thoughts to my fellow drivers.
Management negotiators love the simplicity of a metric that pilots brag and miss the prize. Hourly rate is only one small measure of a career value and is temporary and is not the singular most valuable career metric for pilots. Every contract individually determines what that hour means. Pilots always seem to center on just the number as the capstone and not the rest of the details.
Example: Pilot 1 paid a guarantee of 70 hours x 12 months = 840 guaranteed hours at 175/hr = 147K annually minimum, yet another contract may pay Pilot 2 a guarantee of 65 hours at 175/hr = 780 hours = 136.5K annually.
Pilot 2 gets contract boost of 185/hr and now guarantees 144.3K annually. Still less than Pilot 1 but Pilot 2 has bigger hourly wage bragging rights. In reality, one measure, but takes much more analysis to determine the better compensated career.
Other compensation details matter in quality of career. Pension plans, profit sharing plans, premium pay, insurance costs for healthcare, etc, etc

Punchline: Hourly rate is way to simplistic in the comparison IMHO. "We will give you brand Y hourly rates plus 5 ...and we will squeeze 7% more productivity out of your pilots in scheduling rules and raise your healthcare by X percent and take back some more here and there to cover the increase but your pilots will ratify the contract" Management win.

Have not even discussed individual preferences on quality of life issues in a contract. That is very individual. Personal choice and no matter how much I may prefer my type of flying, be it Pax, Cargo, ACMI, Corporate, etc, certainly have nothing objective to offer a fellow pilot who would find it very undesirable in their world.

Hacker15e

Incorrect. I personally know one of the 2-year MD-88As at Delta from the 2018 timeframe and he was most certainly not management in any way.

Adlerdriver

It doesn't take a 777 FO to work 25 days to match a 757 CA on reserve. Just 3 extra days of carryover for the 777 FO going from 12 to 15 days of work, matching the CA's 15 days of reserve is usually all that's required to bring them to parity (assuming at least 4 years or more seniority for both).
Please explain how someone gets OTP by bidding carryover conflicts.

While I'm posting, has anyone mentioned the fact that Delta (as an example) will have turned down one and negotiated two contracts, with the corresponding pattern bargaining and raises by the time we are even breaking the ice on our first since 2015? Just sayin' pattern bargaining is nice and all, but not so effective if you only do it every 6-8 years.

opt0712

PurpleToolBox and I were talking about 757 CAs, not 88/90 CAs.

NotMrNiceGuy

Doesn’t really matter all that much when they get paid the same.

Year 4
DL MD88 CA - $250
FX B75 CA - $254

I mean, I’d rather fly the 75, but I don’t think that’s the point.

Noworkallplay

And they were or soon to be downgraded when MD-80 parking started a year ago. This was all pre Covid 19.

Noworkallplay

Ok for all those wanting to compared 2015 negotiated rates to 2016 and newer rates do me a favor. Take a snap shot of our rates next contract and compare them to all others pay rates. You will notice a gap (in our favor) just like you see with ours now in the negative direction. Look at the document Sluggo published above. We were top of the heap in 2015 rates and still have the huge retirement value advantage. We also are top of the heap on vacation and soft pay due to line bidding. Stop comparing new vehicular prices from 2015 to vehicular prices today. As a guy who’s been on the legacy side and this side I can tell you unequivocally that our 2015 contract is compensating me substantially more in totality than my previous gig. It’s not even close. Let’s open that gap even further in 2021.

We have negotiations in 10 months and we will be top of the heap again so let’s all get unified and stop the bickering. We have it darn good especially during the horrible times for many others in the industry. We will once again lift the rest of the industry like we did with our 2015 CBA.

BluePAX

Correct me if I'm wrong since I have a surface level understanding of their contract, but as far as I can tell UPS seems to have better conflict bidding. Activities are often dropped with pay, however sometimes the onus is on the company to replace the flying (which may or may not actually happen). It seems that pilots at UPS aren't required to sit on some version of open time and try to get their flying back, and JA (draft) opportunity calls are frequent.

The MU/PMU system seems like a good way to make it feel like you dropped activities with pay, when in fact you will need to make it up at some point. What about the PAX carriers? Do those with line bidding have a version of a Makeup bank, or are activities dropped with pay?

It seems like piggybacking off that would be a vast improvement in the next contract.