Leave a “Big Three” for FedEx/UPS (CV19)?
05-24-2020, 07:55 AM
#91
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Joined APC: Oct 2019
Posts: 923
Originally Posted by BluePAX
Correct me if I'm wrong since I have a surface level understanding of their contract, but as far as I can tell UPS seems to have better conflict bidding. Activities are often dropped with pay, however sometimes the onus is on the company to replace the flying (which may or may not actually happen). It seems that pilots at UPS aren't required to sit on some version of open time and try to get their flying back, and JA (draft) opportunity calls are frequent.
The MU/PMU system seems like a good way to make it feel like you dropped activities with pay, when in fact you will need to make it up at some point. What about the PAX carriers? Do those with line bidding have a version of a Makeup bank, or are activities dropped with pay?
It seems like piggybacking off that would be a vast improvement in the next contract.
The MU/PMU system seems like a good way to make it feel like you dropped activities with pay, when in fact you will need to make it up at some point. What about the PAX carriers? Do those with line bidding have a version of a Makeup bank, or are activities dropped with pay?
It seems like piggybacking off that would be a vast improvement in the next contract.
Dropped trips due to vacation is another issue.
05-24-2020, 08:52 PM
#92
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: 747
Posts: 1,290
Originally Posted by Speed Select
If offered a job, should I leave a “Big Three” major for FedEx or UPS?
Prep well.
Interview like your career depends on it.
If and when you have an offer ... THEN you can decide.
Until that point, it's all just talk.
Things can change radically in the time between your application and a class start date.
05-26-2020, 09:46 AM
#93
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Joined APC: Aug 2006
Position: 1559
Posts: 1,533
Talking about rate comparisons is always easy, but long ago, I learned it always comes down to the work rules and that means the total package, including but not limited to: vacation, deadheading, sick, retirement, A or B or both plans, etc. If all we do is look at a shiny pay rate per hour, we can screw ourselves. Any rate is meaningless outside of that context.
05-26-2020, 12:06 PM
#94
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Joined APC: Dec 2017
Posts: 381
Originally Posted by DC8DRIVER
Definitely apply.
Prep well.
Interview like your career depends on it.
If and when you have an offer ... THEN you can decide.
Until that point, it's all just talk.
Things can change radically in the time between your application and a class start date.
Prep well.
Interview like your career depends on it.
If and when you have an offer ... THEN you can decide.
Until that point, it's all just talk.
Things can change radically in the time between your application and a class start date.
05-26-2020, 10:47 PM
#95
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,099
Originally Posted by Noworkallplay
They are now but were not when the CBA was ratified in 2015. General statement: I love when people compare 5 year old contracts to current contracts that used ours to pattern off of. Plus who cares about just the hourly rate lets look at the whole enchilada. Now don't get me wrong hourly rate is a portion of your compensation but its just a portion. I'm sure the company would be glad to pay us $15 more an hour than any other 757 rate if we are willing to give up the pension. Lets dig deeper. Look at the pattern as future contracts were negotiated off of our late 2014 ratified rates.
10 year Capt pay rate
AA- $287
UA- $279
FDX- $265
Now ask how long and at what longevity does one need to be at to hold those rates even pre covid-19 at UA, DL, and AA. As for UPS they went to a "it all pays the same model". That has its pros and cons also but is a realistic argument to say it may be the best with an operation like theirs which has a much more equally weighted wide body to narrow body count as compared to us at FedEx.
10 year Capt pay rate
AA- $287
UA- $279
FDX- $265
Now ask how long and at what longevity does one need to be at to hold those rates even pre covid-19 at UA, DL, and AA. As for UPS they went to a "it all pays the same model". That has its pros and cons also but is a realistic argument to say it may be the best with an operation like theirs which has a much more equally weighted wide body to narrow body count as compared to us at FedEx.
I was pointing out that some airlines are in second round and at least one coming up on their third round before FedEx gets another bite at the Apple.
Originally Posted by SaltyDog
Interesting discussions and perceptions.
Some other thoughts to my fellow drivers.
Management negotiators love the simplicity of a metric that pilots brag and miss the prize. Hourly rate is only one small measure of a career value and is temporary and is not the singular most valuable career metric for pilots. Every contract individually determines what that hour means. Pilots always seem to center on just the number as the capstone and not the rest of the details.
Example: Pilot 1 paid a guarantee of 70 hours x 12 months = 840 guaranteed hours at 175/hr = 147K annually minimum, yet another contract may pay Pilot 2 a guarantee of 65 hours at 175/hr = 780 hours = 136.5K annually.
Pilot 2 gets contract boost of 185/hr and now guarantees 144.3K annually. Still less than Pilot 1 but Pilot 2 has bigger hourly wage bragging rights. In reality, one measure, but takes much more analysis to determine the better compensated career.
Other compensation details matter in quality of career. Pension plans, profit sharing plans, premium pay, insurance costs for healthcare, etc, etc
Punchline: Hourly rate is way to simplistic in the comparison IMHO. "We will give you brand Y hourly rates plus 5 ...and we will squeeze 7% more productivity out of your pilots in scheduling rules and raise your healthcare by X percent and take back some more here and there to cover the increase but your pilots will ratify the contract" Management win.
Have not even discussed individual preferences on quality of life issues in a contract. That is very individual. Personal choice and no matter how much I may prefer my type of flying, be it Pax, Cargo, ACMI, Corporate, etc, certainly have nothing objective to offer a fellow pilot who would find it very undesirable in their world.
Some other thoughts to my fellow drivers.
Management negotiators love the simplicity of a metric that pilots brag and miss the prize. Hourly rate is only one small measure of a career value and is temporary and is not the singular most valuable career metric for pilots. Every contract individually determines what that hour means. Pilots always seem to center on just the number as the capstone and not the rest of the details.
Example: Pilot 1 paid a guarantee of 70 hours x 12 months = 840 guaranteed hours at 175/hr = 147K annually minimum, yet another contract may pay Pilot 2 a guarantee of 65 hours at 175/hr = 780 hours = 136.5K annually.
Pilot 2 gets contract boost of 185/hr and now guarantees 144.3K annually. Still less than Pilot 1 but Pilot 2 has bigger hourly wage bragging rights. In reality, one measure, but takes much more analysis to determine the better compensated career.
Other compensation details matter in quality of career. Pension plans, profit sharing plans, premium pay, insurance costs for healthcare, etc, etc
Punchline: Hourly rate is way to simplistic in the comparison IMHO. "We will give you brand Y hourly rates plus 5 ...and we will squeeze 7% more productivity out of your pilots in scheduling rules and raise your healthcare by X percent and take back some more here and there to cover the increase but your pilots will ratify the contract" Management win.
Have not even discussed individual preferences on quality of life issues in a contract. That is very individual. Personal choice and no matter how much I may prefer my type of flying, be it Pax, Cargo, ACMI, Corporate, etc, certainly have nothing objective to offer a fellow pilot who would find it very undesirable in their world.
Seems like a fair way to compare is to use total income (including matching funds, company contributions, perdiem, etc) and dividing it by how many days worked over a year.
Originally Posted by BluePAX
Correct me if I'm wrong since I have a surface level understanding of their contract, but as far as I can tell UPS seems to have better conflict bidding. Activities are often dropped with pay, however sometimes the onus is on the company to replace the flying (which may or may not actually happen). It seems that pilots at UPS aren't required to sit on some version of open time and try to get their flying back, and JA (draft) opportunity calls are frequent.
The MU/PMU system seems like a good way to make it feel like you dropped activities with pay, when in fact you will need to make it up at some point. What about the PAX carriers? Do those with line bidding have a version of a Makeup bank, or are activities dropped with pay?
It seems like piggybacking off that would be a vast improvement in the next contract.
The MU/PMU system seems like a good way to make it feel like you dropped activities with pay, when in fact you will need to make it up at some point. What about the PAX carriers? Do those with line bidding have a version of a Makeup bank, or are activities dropped with pay?
It seems like piggybacking off that would be a vast improvement in the next contract.
I would like to see something closer to that than what FedEx has today.
05-28-2020, 01:24 PM
#96
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Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,622
Originally Posted by Sluggo_63
Ok. Your post made me dig up a spreadsheet I did when the 2015 TA was out. I took our TA rates and compared them with the book rates at all the majors at the time for each fleet type and seat. American had just signed their contract and had the highest rates of all the majors at the time.
Here it is:
Here it is:
Thanks
Last edited by PurpleToolBox; 05-28-2020 at 01:55 PM.
05-28-2020, 06:31 PM
#97
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Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 1,622
[QUOTE=Noworkallplay;3062477]
No I'm not comparing junior 757CA to senior WBFO. A 777FO with average seniority is going to have overages and additives which will make his/her pay competitive to that of 757CA. You know, soft money not pay rates.
Yeah I can tell you were a YES man. "Industry leading pay rates" which essentially equaled the Delta TA which was ultimately voted down. Then in late November 2015, United's TA had an 13% raise with a "me too" Delta clause followed by 3% and 2%. In less than a month our "industry leading pay rates" weren't industry leading anymore. But hey, we got PBS (the new SLG forced upon us and it is only the interim software until we get our secondary line PBS software) and gave up a significant number of reserve lines for it. We got the ability for senior folks to exploit open time with OTP creating bidding groups who pickup trips with OTP and then swap with one another. And the best for last. We gave up Passover Pay -- the single greatest financial giveback of C2015. Huge mistake.
Yeah .. industry leading.
Originally Posted by PurpleToolBox
Even worse, a widebody FO is going to make more than a NB Captain -- especially 777FO and as of late a MD11FO.
This is true at most major airlines. If you are comparing a very JR narrow body Capt. who just does his min schedule to a senior WB FO who hustles and works 25 days a month. Especially with FedEx's hard line bidding like we have (most places don't) and can hold carryover. Its just amusing watching you complaining about everything. Would you like PBS so we dont have senior FO's getting carryover? We could close the gap that way if you would like. Oh we can also get rid of OTP so those senior enough to hold carryover conflicts dont get priority makeup. This would also open the gap like all the legacies who have PBS. Ive played the Legacy game and I can tell you we have much more soft money hints my comment that hourly rate is only part of the factor. I also want top of the industry hourly rates next contract just like we had when we ratified the 2015 CBA.
This is true at most major airlines. If you are comparing a very JR narrow body Capt. who just does his min schedule to a senior WB FO who hustles and works 25 days a month. Especially with FedEx's hard line bidding like we have (most places don't) and can hold carryover. Its just amusing watching you complaining about everything. Would you like PBS so we dont have senior FO's getting carryover? We could close the gap that way if you would like. Oh we can also get rid of OTP so those senior enough to hold carryover conflicts dont get priority makeup. This would also open the gap like all the legacies who have PBS. Ive played the Legacy game and I can tell you we have much more soft money hints my comment that hourly rate is only part of the factor. I also want top of the industry hourly rates next contract just like we had when we ratified the 2015 CBA.
Yeah I can tell you were a YES man. "Industry leading pay rates" which essentially equaled the Delta TA which was ultimately voted down. Then in late November 2015, United's TA had an 13% raise with a "me too" Delta clause followed by 3% and 2%. In less than a month our "industry leading pay rates" weren't industry leading anymore. But hey, we got PBS (the new SLG forced upon us and it is only the interim software until we get our secondary line PBS software) and gave up a significant number of reserve lines for it. We got the ability for senior folks to exploit open time with OTP creating bidding groups who pickup trips with OTP and then swap with one another. And the best for last. We gave up Passover Pay -- the single greatest financial giveback of C2015. Huge mistake.
Yeah .. industry leading.
05-28-2020, 06:39 PM
#99
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Joined APC: Nov 2017
Posts: 2,238
Originally Posted by C17B74
FedEx/UPS/ACMI and Guard/Reserve units, application overflow or positions already filled for the most part on the latter. Legitimate question regarding - Why are you here? Didn’t most of us get that one even during the better times when everyone was in the black and hiring! Good friend of mine with 6 years seniority at UA just started his full-time gig last month back at our Guard unit with a signing bonus. Great foresight maybe, but those positions are not advertised nor filled via the process very quickly, great move on his part. Having done those hiring boards it’s quite easy to see who wants to be here (wherever you’re applying) and who personally needs to be here if you will. Combination of both is the norm. Honesty is obviously the best policy and it’s no-brainer why apps are piling up to the ceiling. Really hope the current line pilots at whatever outfit you are can submit names as great references for priority handling if you will (Good differentiator). We all want to fly with good folks. It must be tough to be on the hiring board during lean or fat times depending on your perspective. Fortune favors the bold AND may the forces of evil become confused on your path to success.
*Unfortunate times for most but my guess is the poster of the “Considering jumping ship” thread (Leave FedEx for the Big 3) had his decision made for him. Tough stuff when lifestyle isn’t working out, but fortunate not to pull chocks prior to this blowout. Opportunity will knock again when this economy has its “fix-a-flat!” Life perspective based on historical value paves your future.
*Unfortunate times for most but my guess is the poster of the “Considering jumping ship” thread (Leave FedEx for the Big 3) had his decision made for him. Tough stuff when lifestyle isn’t working out, but fortunate not to pull chocks prior to this blowout. Opportunity will knock again when this economy has its “fix-a-flat!” Life perspective based on historical value paves your future.
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