FedEx LOA First and Final thoughts
 

FIRST :I speak as someone that does have “Intel” and others would consider me “in the know”. I will share reliable facts, what the current situation is, and you then can vote as you will. I won’t sit here and defend these statements and get into verbal attacks, I will just educate some that might not have the correct info and are willing to be the “+ 1” out of frustration. Heres the info:1) This was a very in-depth negotiation. The MEC did come to the table with a much more “elevated” starting point. (so did the company) There were many “heated” negotiations, schooling was an absolute no for the company, the “seed” money was a big plus for the negotiation, it still isn’t the best, but when we discussed the alternatives of lack of progression and job stagnation we completed negotiations. Trust the MEC when I tell you ‘we will not be getting a LOA round 2, this is it, trust me’2) The company currently believes we have an excess of 500 pilots, NOT including how age 60 will affect us. Currently the high staffing will be for the training float, additional a/c, the new open time "open period", AND (mostly) the (2) new bases. The company expects the excess to continue due to the AGE 60 pilots returning to the back of the B727. (The company did not expect this high of a retainment)3) SIBA will be gone, it will not return even with a no vote on the LOA, the company was very definite about this.4) When/IF the LOA is voted done, the company has two optionsa. Open the domicile without the LOA. Due to legal and current contractual issues this is not what we want. (TRUST ME)b. Open the bases without FedEx pilots flying FedEx A/C. This will do massive damage to career expectations across the board. And this is not a rumor it has been researched and is a viable alternative that the company is prepared to go through with.5) As a side note the company’s analysis of previously trained on the B757 have been on the property for less than 4.5 years (FDA Captains) and the current hiring pool would provide a more than an abundance of B757 pilots (FDA F/O’s). The company has already considered prior to this LOA to hire directly into BOTH seats directly from the pool (i.e. ANC MD).6) Being based in CDG or HKG will not be a windfall of finances or living conditions. The company will not be “throwing” any more money at us for going. Please review calculations on how the additional Captain positions, additional a/c and a continued hiring process and how it will affect your position.7) Be Careful what we wish for, because we might just get it. FINAL THOUGHT : Be ready for the alternative, this is NOT where we want to make our contractual stand, save it for three years when we re-enter negotiations. TRUST ME.

Please put the crack pipe down ... you've had enough. I recommend www.drug-rehabs.org

TRUST YOU? You sound like some management stooge?

I didn't know PC was a member of this forum? And by the way ... the FPA contract you tried to "sell us" wasn't a great deal either. We were able to do better after we said NO on that. Why not this?

I wonder who gets the BIG MBO bonus if we bite off on this?


Regards ...

Wow!
 

First post and he comes out swingin!!!

Sarcasm on: I am sooooo glad you came to enlighten me. I wasn't able to read this POS and think for myself. I WILL continue to follow orders. How high should I jump? Sarcasm off. I actually don't think the whole thing is a POS, but there are a lot of missing details. The big NO for me is because of the TDY issue.

So, FedEx (the company that about had an aneurism hiring direct to the right seat of the -11) is going to hire directly into the LEFT seat of a widebody and then send the guy to a FDA? Interesting. To quote the great Wayne "shhhhhyeahhh, and monkeys might fly out of my butt".

If they could staff overseas ops with cheaper pilots and not do great damage to the brand name, they would have already done it. We're already paid too much, right?

I don't know who you are, or who you know, or what kind of inside info you have-but crack kills.

First, I would like to say...Go ******* Yourself with these scare tactics. Unless you are willing to say who you are and where you came up with this info, forget it.
Second, if you are in the know, why the he double hockey sticks did you let this SVT/STV/STD crap get into the LOA??? This in itself is the deal breaker. What is worse than opening up a bid and then being forced to live there?
Third, Explain why we don't want them to open the FDA's under the current CBA? As a union guy knowing full well this was up coming, why didn't we position ourselves better for this, instead of, say, VIBA?
Fourth, How can you guarantee they won't continue SIBA? They have to move it somehow, and I am guessing a judge will say, "You aren't making less money, you used to pay for this..."
Answer these four points and what ever questions the rest of the crowd has, and I might consider listening. until then ****!
Oh, and as a potential person that was going to bid this, explain to me how they are going to provide adequate health care, reliable, safe transportation, and what my schedule might look like. Thanks Rowdy1

How the $%LL do you expect us to take you seriously with all that threatening BS, when you don't even give your name, and you've never posted before. I don't care what you say or what anyone else does, I'm still voting NO!
Z

Everything you say might be true, and yet i'll still vote no just on the stv issue. I just cannot hand the company the power to send me involuntarily overseas for three months at stretch. nice of you "in the know guys" to pipe in. But unless i read it in a union comm, i wont believe it. If what you say is true, why wouldnt the union inform us of that?

Surely, if there were a train that "was about to leave the station" our union would certainly advise us to jump on ... or miss out on being able to drive the choo choo later.

The lack of communication from the union (except for TonyC, thanks Tony) on this issue is especially disturbing. What's up with that anyway?

Regards,

Rowdy1.....what kind of fungi you smokin to come on this website and try to spout some threatening company-sponsored crap and expect us to take anything you say as credible?? You're either a mgmt lurker who saw this LOA getting torched here and decided to enlighten us as to how stupid we actually are or......you are one of the 11 YES votes who is insulted we aren't swallowing this POS LOA with the plastic spoon you gave us. Your FIRST post and you vomit your disinformation all over yourself....hit the bricks and have a nice life ......TRUST ME you stooge! And yes, if you can't tell; I took your amateurish lecture personally.

Check out his profile. If true, Albie should know who he is.

Rowdy,

almost without fail, whenever someone says "trust me", its usually a mistake.

I don't want a economic or lifestyle windfall to open the FDA, just want to maintain the status quo, and I don't think that's likely with the LOA as written.

current move package already gives me 10k or 79CH, whichever is greater, at the new rate of pay.....so, the new hire capt gets more bucks with the existing CBA than would with the LOA....assuming the FDA is not his first domicile

and, if i understand your argument, we have too many pilots, but, if we vote down the loa, the company will hire more pilots to do the flying already being done by existing employees?

something else i don't understand, fedex is retaining more pilots due to the possible changes to Age 60 (timing TBD) yet, my relative seniority moved up 150 numbers.....why is that? while I don't have the old retirement chart, I seem to recall the retirement forecast was about 170 in 2006 (its 126 in 07 and 151 in 08

why again, should I trust someone making his/her first ever post on APC?


instead of a rental allowance for LOA move option 2 (no rental allowance for option 1).....why not something similar to what some companies provide. When my cousin moved to Paris for his company, they handed him the keys to a company car, flat, and a COLA.

I didn't take it personally.

Want this to pass? Pull it. Take out SVT. It might then have a chance, despite being (IMHO) quite substandard. However--I'll fight anyone--MGT or Union--who thinks being sent away 3 months from family is acceptable. That is assinine. If--according the Scott Schwartz--nobody thinks it will happen, then WHY did it end up in writing in the LOA.

We can argue about money and allowances. Being sent away against my will is a non-starter--pure and simple.

Not personal--so Rowdy1--if you can fix that--do it and come back to us.

Let's see....which member of senior mgmt also came out of the USAF with an F-15 background and was an instructor pilot?

Actually there might be some truth here. But, I am OK with FDX hiring straight into the domiciles. If someone on property is dumb enough to bid this with or without the LOA, they can live like crap in HKG or CDG.

I agree about the STD section being a no-go for me. Other than that, if someone wants to voluntarily go to one of the most expensive cities in the world with a 2700 dollar override, go for it. I would consider living abroad but not in either of these cities. But by voting this LOA in, we open ourselves to get nonvol'd for three months. No thanks, I prefer to keep things as they are. Probably won't happen, but hey "it's in the contract" so you have to think of it as a real possibility....

:D Rowdy1 must have seen this video.

http://theater.despair.com/013006icbwwmv.html

Hmmmm...

First Ca$$el tells us that the company needs our help (FCIF, last para), then Rowdy here comes along and says that they don't. Either Ca$$el has bad "intel" or Rowdy does. I'm sure Fred will be along any day now with a red letter to clear all this up.

That posts should have had a red background.

I don't know any other former TASS HOLES from my era that also flew the Eagle, but I got into the OV-10 at the end...89-91. I have no idea who he might be. If the profile is accurate (and who knows?) he might be:

A management guy....

A union guy....

A concerned citizen who really thinks this thing not passing could hurt us.

In any case--I'm not here to call anyone names. I am trying to not sound like a shrill, but I just want to run and jump on a table at the AOC and say "DO YOU REALIZE THAT YOU COULD BE LEGALLY SENT OVERSEAS FOR 3 MONTHS TO HUB TURN IN CHINA AND YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT IF WE SIGN THIS?"

I really don't care if guys want to go over. If they think 2700 is enough--more power to them. RLA would be nice. Making the company and the union happy at the same time would be nice. Spending less time on the internet stressing about this would be nice.

But--as nicely as I can say it--no. SVT= no. There is no amount of money that will change that. You want input ALPA/MGT? Pull that out. Revise the LOA tomorrow. Then vote. You might get what you want then. I doubt seriously you will now.

Didn't you get the pictures I drew for you to go along with the LOA?

But when I voted for this new contract, the union told me that our scope was the tightest in the industry...

Is this a script from the X-Files?
 

1) I speak as someone that does have “Intel” and others would consider me “in the know”.

Sorry, but I don't take info from a mysterious guy in a trench coat on a dark alley....this ain't the X-files! Our Union doesn't (or at least shouldn't) work this way. State your name, rank and serial number and identify your source on the MEC...or better yet, have your MEC "source" communicate all pertinent info directly through proper channels as the MEC should.

If Negotiations got "heated" as you say then I say good! That tells me a lot...it tells me that the Company really wants this LOA badly...if they didn't, there would have been no "heat" and no negotiations...they simply would have made their offer and left it at that.


2) "The company currently believes we have an excess of 500 pilots..."

Who cares? Pilot staffing levels are irrelevant to a suitable financial package for a foreign domicile.


3) SIBA will be gone

Who cares? The Company can and always had the right/ability to SIBA or not to SIBA. This is just a veiled threat to induce FUD (Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt). The technique is found in Chapter 1 of The Management Guide to Crushing Those Pesky Unions.


4) When/IF the LOA is voted done, the company has two optionsa. Open the domicile without the LOA. Due to legal and current contractual issues this is not what we want. (TRUST ME)b. Open the bases without FedEx pilots flying FedEx A/C. This will do massive damage to career expectations across the board. And this is not a rumor it has been researched and is a viable alternative that the company is prepared to go through with.

4a) Care to elaborate? Can the MEC elaborate? I can think, reason, analyze, pay dues....oh, and vote too, so pardon me if I don't just "Trust You." Give me the facts and let me decide.
4b) What a weak attempt at a threat....if it is so viable the Company would have done it already and we would find out about it in the Commercial Appeal...period!


5) As a side note the company’s analysis....

Again, if the Company thought it was both cheaper and at least as efficient to hire foreign pilots to protect the FedEx name or hire directly to the left seat, they'd have done so long ago. I don't think I can express it any better than HazCan already did, so I'll just quote him here..."shhhhhyeahhh, and monkeys might fly out of my butt"


6) Being based in CDG or HKG will not be a windfall of finances or living conditions.

On this point I agree with you...this LOA will certainly not be a windfall. Duh!


7) Be Careful what we wish for, because we might just get it.

Another ominous threat from the man in the cloak....so noted.


FINAL THOUGHT : Be ready for the alternative, this is NOT where we want to make our contractual stand, save it for three years when we re-enter negotiations. TRUST ME.


Yes, why take a stand now for the relatively junior guys that will be stuck with this turd sandwich when we can make our stand in a few years for the senior guys' pay rates on the A380, errr B777? And besides, we all know in 3 years we will really, really, really get everything we ask for....no need to unify on this issue which only affects a small percentage of junior guys (sarcasm light-illuminated)

The REAL Final Thought here is this....If the Company didn't need this badly, they would not have offered an extra dime for an LOA. Do you think some Management weenie cooked up this package because he was a humanitarian? The Company is doing this out of the goodness of their hearts? This is just business...cold, hard business, nothing personal...it's how this kind of stuff works. If there was "heat" in the negotiations, that speaks volumes about the importance the Company places on having "us" fly the freight over there.

You had me at 'trust me', I'M VOTING YES....NOT!!!!! That and I buy everything I see on TV.

I dont trust you either. My vote stays NO.

Rowdy1,

I am not sure if you are a union official, or a company mouthpiece, but either way, this is an embarrassing moment. To post on this website as a person "in the know" without identifying yourself is a truly unethical, unprofessional thing to do. Please take your propaganda elsewhere.

Ready 1 - 2 - 3
 

On the count of three,
everybody go to USER CP and
block messages from Rowdy1

FIRST: This post is worthless without stating who/what you are!

PC, is that you?

Different Union
 

I was talking about this subject with my Captain Friday night while we were heading to PHX. He said that he thinks that over 60% of the union members have been hired since 2000. This is a different FDX union from the past and it might be time to take a stand. Lets start with this LOA and send the company a message...

I can't believe that that name was still available.

Yea, the name was still availabe when I join Flight info back in 2002 while trying to get on with FDX. The name just transfered to APC.

;)Trust me I am in the know. Fred's sister has bought all the hotels in Prague and is turning them into Condos. The company "PLAN B" is to run the the euro domicile with an airbridge. The COLA will be tripled, but only if you purchase a Prague Condo. The additional funds will come from the tax equalization windfall as they have worked out no foreign taxes in Prague.

Look for a similar announcement for Asia as the Smith Family is purchasing a lot of land in Guam.;)

Well, your Capt to PHX Fri night was wrong. I was hired in Feb 96 and only about 54.5% of the current Master Seniority List has been hired since I was hired!:rolleyes: But otherwise, he is correct!:D

Thanks for the input if you are a MEC member trying to get info out, under the table. But really. TRUST? You guys lost that with the over 60 screw the fellows vote. That being said, we are for the most part pretty smart, so if you would like to explain in DETAIL why the MEC acted the way it did on some of the LOA issues fire away. Most of us will listen. You might be able to change some minds, but be carefull what you wish for! You might change them in a way you don't want.

i was hired in 96 and am right at 50% on the master seniority list. but it is a different union, no doubt.

They're scared
 

First the FCIF and now this threatening post from a management type is further evidence that they're scared, very scared.

Face it Rowdy1, tell your boss that you all had better start working on a better LOA or CDG and HKG will not open this year, and Fred will be very upset with you Flight Management types if you don't make this happen.

Now get back to work and give us a LOA that is fair and equitable with Cathy Pacific so we can move forward.

SG

Not asking you to debate.

Not personally attacking.


But how do you figure 500 pilots overmanned?

And how do you figure an end to SIBA? If not, then there will be a lot of Double DH's for the MD11 to cover the flying.

Rowdy Rowdy rowdy,

As HazCan so appropriatly puts it:

"Break was over 15 minutes ago B@#&H"....get back to your cubicle...

Rowdy,

If you are so in the know and connected, why don't you have someone who is a regular poster on this site with some credibility confirm your importance without revealing your identity. Even the most on abstract and out of touch nutjob who works for Fedex has someone out there who is willing to say that they are "OK." If you can't do that then you are not "in the know" with anyone that matters to me. If you are management, then your apparent arrogance in launching such self-serving first thread speaks volumes to the many problems that ails this company.

By the way, your no more SIBA and too many pilots arguments only make if we were to bend over for this deal and allow ourselves to get raped via STV.

Feel free to hire new hires to fill these FDA's at the current rate if you can.

Wow, that may have been the best 'drive-by' post I have ever seen on this board. 4 pages so far and we all know that he will not answer at all except to say something along the lines of 'I know the truth and you will see if you vote this down.' The post itself doesn't make me mad and really could have been made by simply picking and pulling from the various posts we all have made about this deal that have included discussions on potential negatives if this doesn't go through.

How big would these bases be to start out to 'mostly' soak up 500 pilots? 335 pilots would be 67% of that surplus, 375 would be 75%. Seems pretty big for a new domicile(s) especially when one doesn't even have operational aircraft on property yet. How exactly are they getting those 4.5 year and under previously trained 757 guys to just volunteer to go over to Paris with or without an LOA? If they hire into both seats after the bid, those pilots would be on our list and it's still FDX flying so what exactly is the problem? As far as foreign pilots go, let's be honest it would never get to that point over this particular deal. The MEC would file a grievance and a temporary injunction at which point in time and likely negotiate a settlement-although I grant you it would likely be one that we wouldn't like. In addition, our good Uncle Prater wouldn't let it get that far as it would affect his interests and wallet.

Seems to me that if all of this was as imminent of a threat as you imply, that the MEC would be squawking a lot more about this and campaigning hard ahead of July 23rd instead of limping along to the finish line like they have thus far. Since you didn't use the word 'furlough', I would say that you'd have to be mgt. or some sort of lower level ALPA committee member on an 'approved' leak. A line puke would have just said 'hundreds of people on the street, big excesses, downgrades and stagnation,' as there is little to lose if somewhere is clever enough to track down their identity. My gut says management since you elected to use the word 'legal' ahead of contractual and your constant use of pilot buzzwords like career expectations and how a continued hiring process would affect our positions. P.S. the upside of hiring all of those experienced pilots the last few years is strong candidates for potential quick upgrades anywhere, the downside is that they are less moved by scare tactics-'there is nothing that you can do to me, that Castro hasn't already done'.

Drive-By Comment
 

As much as we would all like for Rowdy to defend and substantiate his remarks, I think we need to realize that this was a "drive-by" comment thrown out to test/stir the waters. As previously stated...nobody has even attempted to confirm his credibility....nor the validity of his post.

500 excess pilots??? That's extremely poor planning for a company that has always exercised extreme prudence in their pilot hiring practices. :rolleyes: Wow!! Should we expect furloughs soon??

Beat me to it Mr. Larusso.