National vs. Western Global Airlines
12-24-2023, 06:37 AM
#12
Tuberriffic
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: Hopefully the bunk
Posts: 222
Most of the people at Kalitta who came from National or WGA (and there are a lot of them) say it's a substantial improvement across the board, for what that's worth. But yeah, unless your friend has some... colorful events in his background, he would probably be better served to avoid ACMI altogether in this market. The military->regional->goal airline career path is so well trodden because it works, and now is the time to do it. Career progression can get fuzzy in ACMI land.
edit: If your friend is really just looking for a recommendation of one over the other, then I would offer the most lukewarm endorsement imaginable for National.
edit: If your friend is really just looking for a recommendation of one over the other, then I would offer the most lukewarm endorsement imaginable for National.
12-24-2023, 09:34 AM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 218
National and WGA are unique animals, and not for the faint of heart. Where a company like National fits in is if you are an older and more experienced pilot who can get a direct entry captain position. Maybe you live overseas and want to take advantage of the global home basing. Commuting just sucks all the way around, no longer having to worry about it is a huge increase in QOL. Getting to live in a place you really love, regardless of where on the planet it may be, and being able to start/stop your rotation from there, all while collecting miles/points, is a game changer when compared with trying to jumpseat and relying on a crashpad. Maybe your retirement has taken a few hits due to past companies going bust, or divorce, or something else, and you need to make good money as quickly as possible. The money at National is very real, and at least until the end of the year, the company is paying 300% for working an off day. The other positive is the flying is wide and varied and constantly changing and you will see a lot of places in the world that most people only dream of. However if you are used to 3-6 sectors per day doing something like Chicago-Tulsa-Houston-Tampa-Cleveland, doing 2-3 sectors over 30 hours between New York-Liege-Muscat-Dubai, or having a layover in Luanda, Angola, is going to be a big shock to the system
But this is hard work, and not glamorous at all. In my time doing this, the guys who are fatgued all of the time are the ones who place their biggest importance on going out and getting a drink with everyone as soon as you land somewhere, and there are a lot of those in this line of work. The ones who seem to do better are the slam-clickers whose first priority upon arrival is getting some sleep. So if you are a person who likes to be sociable with the crew, even after 20-30 hours of being together with them, then you may find yourself constantly worn out. Make no mistake, this is a VERY hard lifestyle, and not for the faint of heart.
One last thing, the characterization that all guys at National are here just because they cannot go anywhere else is an unfair and inaccurate generalization. For example there are a ton of Aussies and Kiwis at National who came during the pandemic, having lost jobs at places like Emirates and Cathay Pacific. Went to National as it was one of the few options out there, and are now finding themselves making more money than they have ever made (like I said, the money is real - you just work very hard to get it). There are some guys who have married foreign spouses and moved overseas and are now taking advantage of the opportunity to make the big money that is only available in the States right now, while not having to worry about commuting. There are still some guys who landed a job back in the 2000s when National was still Murray Air and none of the majors were hiring, and they have just been comfortable and not interested in moving on. There are some guys who were let go from Kalitta for refusing to get vaccinated. And yes, there are some folks here with shady backgrounds who will be career FOs because of one issue or another. For some people, the idea of slogging a 737 around the States for 3-6 sectors per day is just not appealing, even if it means getting to wear the fancy uniform and marching through a busy airport and hoping some hot chick is admiring you.
But this is hard work, and not glamorous at all. In my time doing this, the guys who are fatgued all of the time are the ones who place their biggest importance on going out and getting a drink with everyone as soon as you land somewhere, and there are a lot of those in this line of work. The ones who seem to do better are the slam-clickers whose first priority upon arrival is getting some sleep. So if you are a person who likes to be sociable with the crew, even after 20-30 hours of being together with them, then you may find yourself constantly worn out. Make no mistake, this is a VERY hard lifestyle, and not for the faint of heart.
One last thing, the characterization that all guys at National are here just because they cannot go anywhere else is an unfair and inaccurate generalization. For example there are a ton of Aussies and Kiwis at National who came during the pandemic, having lost jobs at places like Emirates and Cathay Pacific. Went to National as it was one of the few options out there, and are now finding themselves making more money than they have ever made (like I said, the money is real - you just work very hard to get it). There are some guys who have married foreign spouses and moved overseas and are now taking advantage of the opportunity to make the big money that is only available in the States right now, while not having to worry about commuting. There are still some guys who landed a job back in the 2000s when National was still Murray Air and none of the majors were hiring, and they have just been comfortable and not interested in moving on. There are some guys who were let go from Kalitta for refusing to get vaccinated. And yes, there are some folks here with shady backgrounds who will be career FOs because of one issue or another. For some people, the idea of slogging a 737 around the States for 3-6 sectors per day is just not appealing, even if it means getting to wear the fancy uniform and marching through a busy airport and hoping some hot chick is admiring you.
12-24-2023, 09:57 AM
#14
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,469
Originally Posted by ObadiahDogberry
National and WGA are unique animals, and not for the faint of heart. Where a company like National fits in is if you are an older and more experienced pilot who can get a direct entry captain position. Maybe you live overseas and want to take advantage of the global home basing. Commuting just sucks all the way around, no longer having to worry about it is a huge increase in QOL. Getting to live in a place you really love, regardless of where on the planet it may be, and being able to start/stop your rotation from there, all while collecting miles/points, is a game changer when compared with trying to jumpseat and relying on a crashpad. Maybe your retirement has taken a few hits due to past companies going bust, or divorce, or something else, and you need to make good money as quickly as possible. The money at National is very real, and at least until the end of the year, the company is paying 300% for working an off day. The other positive is the flying is wide and varied and constantly changing and you will see a lot of places in the world that most people only dream of. However if you are used to 3-6 sectors per day doing something like Chicago-Tulsa-Houston-Tampa-Cleveland, doing 2-3 sectors over 30 hours between New York-Liege-Muscat-Dubai, or having a layover in Luanda, Angola, is going to be a big shock to the system
But this is hard work, and not glamorous at all. In my time doing this, the guys who are fatgued all of the time are the ones who place their biggest importance on going out and getting a drink with everyone as soon as you land somewhere, and there are a lot of those in this line of work. The ones who seem to do better are the slam-clickers whose first priority upon arrival is getting some sleep. So if you are a person who likes to be sociable with the crew, even after 20-30 hours of being together with them, then you may find yourself constantly worn out. Make no mistake, this is a VERY hard lifestyle, and not for the faint of heart.
One last thing, the characterization that all guys at National are here just because they cannot go anywhere else is an unfair and inaccurate generalization. For example there are a ton of Aussies and Kiwis at National who came during the pandemic, having lost jobs at places like Emirates and Cathay Pacific. Went to National as it was one of the few options out there, and are now finding themselves making more money than they have ever made (like I said, the money is real - you just work very hard to get it). There are some guys who have married foreign spouses and moved overseas and are now taking advantage of the opportunity to make the big money that is only available in the States right now, while not having to worry about commuting. There are still some guys who landed a job back in the 2000s when National was still Murray Air and none of the majors were hiring, and they have just been comfortable and not interested in moving on. There are some guys who were let go from Kalitta for refusing to get vaccinated. And yes, there are some folks here with shady backgrounds who will be career FOs because of one issue or another. For some people, the idea of slogging a 737 around the States for 3-6 sectors per day is just not appealing, even if it means getting to wear the fancy uniform and marching through a busy airport and hoping some hot chick is admiring you.
But this is hard work, and not glamorous at all. In my time doing this, the guys who are fatgued all of the time are the ones who place their biggest importance on going out and getting a drink with everyone as soon as you land somewhere, and there are a lot of those in this line of work. The ones who seem to do better are the slam-clickers whose first priority upon arrival is getting some sleep. So if you are a person who likes to be sociable with the crew, even after 20-30 hours of being together with them, then you may find yourself constantly worn out. Make no mistake, this is a VERY hard lifestyle, and not for the faint of heart.
One last thing, the characterization that all guys at National are here just because they cannot go anywhere else is an unfair and inaccurate generalization. For example there are a ton of Aussies and Kiwis at National who came during the pandemic, having lost jobs at places like Emirates and Cathay Pacific. Went to National as it was one of the few options out there, and are now finding themselves making more money than they have ever made (like I said, the money is real - you just work very hard to get it). There are some guys who have married foreign spouses and moved overseas and are now taking advantage of the opportunity to make the big money that is only available in the States right now, while not having to worry about commuting. There are still some guys who landed a job back in the 2000s when National was still Murray Air and none of the majors were hiring, and they have just been comfortable and not interested in moving on. There are some guys who were let go from Kalitta for refusing to get vaccinated. And yes, there are some folks here with shady backgrounds who will be career FOs because of one issue or another. For some people, the idea of slogging a 737 around the States for 3-6 sectors per day is just not appealing, even if it means getting to wear the fancy uniform and marching through a busy airport and hoping some hot chick is admiring you.
12-24-2023, 10:21 AM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2017
Position: 777 Left window seat
Posts: 640
Originally Posted by ObadiahDogberry
National and WGA are unique animals, and not for the faint of heart. Where a company like National fits in is if you are an older and more experienced pilot who can get a direct entry captain position. Maybe you live overseas and want to take advantage of the global home basing. Commuting just sucks all the way around, no longer having to worry about it is a huge increase in QOL. Getting to live in a place you really love, regardless of where on the planet it may be, and being able to start/stop your rotation from there, all while collecting miles/points, is a game changer when compared with trying to jumpseat and relying on a crashpad. Maybe your retirement has taken a few hits due to past companies going bust, or divorce, or something else, and you need to make good money as quickly as possible. The money at National is very real, and at least until the end of the year, the company is paying 300% for working an off day. The other positive is the flying is wide and varied and constantly changing and you will see a lot of places in the world that most people only dream of. However if you are used to 3-6 sectors per day doing something like Chicago-Tulsa-Houston-Tampa-Cleveland, doing 2-3 sectors over 30 hours between New York-Liege-Muscat-Dubai, or having a layover in Luanda, Angola, is going to be a big shock to the system
But this is hard work, and not glamorous at all. In my time doing this, the guys who are fatgued all of the time are the ones who place their biggest importance on going out and getting a drink with everyone as soon as you land somewhere, and there are a lot of those in this line of work. The ones who seem to do better are the slam-clickers whose first priority upon arrival is getting some sleep. So if you are a person who likes to be sociable with the crew, even after 20-30 hours of being together with them, then you may find yourself constantly worn out. Make no mistake, this is a VERY hard lifestyle, and not for the faint of heart.
One last thing, the characterization that all guys at National are here just because they cannot go anywhere else is an unfair and inaccurate generalization. For example there are a ton of Aussies and Kiwis at National who came during the pandemic, having lost jobs at places like Emirates and Cathay Pacific. Went to National as it was one of the few options out there, and are now finding themselves making more money than they have ever made (like I said, the money is real - you just work very hard to get it). There are some guys who have married foreign spouses and moved overseas and are now taking advantage of the opportunity to make the big money that is only available in the States right now, while not having to worry about commuting. There are still some guys who landed a job back in the 2000s when National was still Murray Air and none of the majors were hiring, and they have just been comfortable and not interested in moving on. There are some guys who were let go from Kalitta for refusing to get vaccinated. And yes, there are some folks here with shady backgrounds who will be career FOs because of one issue or another. For some people, the idea of slogging a 737 around the States for 3-6 sectors per day is just not appealing, even if it means getting to wear the fancy uniform and marching through a busy airport and hoping some hot chick is admiring you.
But this is hard work, and not glamorous at all. In my time doing this, the guys who are fatgued all of the time are the ones who place their biggest importance on going out and getting a drink with everyone as soon as you land somewhere, and there are a lot of those in this line of work. The ones who seem to do better are the slam-clickers whose first priority upon arrival is getting some sleep. So if you are a person who likes to be sociable with the crew, even after 20-30 hours of being together with them, then you may find yourself constantly worn out. Make no mistake, this is a VERY hard lifestyle, and not for the faint of heart.
One last thing, the characterization that all guys at National are here just because they cannot go anywhere else is an unfair and inaccurate generalization. For example there are a ton of Aussies and Kiwis at National who came during the pandemic, having lost jobs at places like Emirates and Cathay Pacific. Went to National as it was one of the few options out there, and are now finding themselves making more money than they have ever made (like I said, the money is real - you just work very hard to get it). There are some guys who have married foreign spouses and moved overseas and are now taking advantage of the opportunity to make the big money that is only available in the States right now, while not having to worry about commuting. There are still some guys who landed a job back in the 2000s when National was still Murray Air and none of the majors were hiring, and they have just been comfortable and not interested in moving on. There are some guys who were let go from Kalitta for refusing to get vaccinated. And yes, there are some folks here with shady backgrounds who will be career FOs because of one issue or another. For some people, the idea of slogging a 737 around the States for 3-6 sectors per day is just not appealing, even if it means getting to wear the fancy uniform and marching through a busy airport and hoping some hot chick is admiring you.
12-24-2023, 03:10 PM
#16
FO
Joined APC: Apr 2015
Position: B777
Posts: 175
Originally Posted by Birdsmash
One of the best ACMI summaries I’ve seen recently.
Last edited by Hawkerdriver1; 12-24-2023 at 03:24 PM.
12-25-2023, 01:51 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2020
Posts: 218
Originally Posted by dera
You guys need to post some real life numbers of that real money, because the numbers here in APC suggest an Atlas FO will make more money (considering 401K and other perks) than a National CA after year 1.
12-25-2023, 02:32 AM
#18
New Hire
Joined APC: Oct 2023
Posts: 1
National seems to be more diversified and stable, if you can handle flying with the Oztronauts.
Western Global is just emerging from bankruptcy with a large amount of high interest debt. A majority of the current flying seems dependent on bombs continuing to fall in Gaza.
Be prepared for 30 hour duty days and frequent international middle seat economy deadheads with both companies.
Western Global is just emerging from bankruptcy with a large amount of high interest debt. A majority of the current flying seems dependent on bombs continuing to fall in Gaza.
Be prepared for 30 hour duty days and frequent international middle seat economy deadheads with both companies.
12-25-2023, 08:05 AM
#19
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 747 captain
Posts: 1,549
Hello all & Merry Christmas. National is a better job than Western Global just considering stability. I don't foresee National going away since they have carved a niche for themselves in the ad-hoc market and seem to be getting more flying that they can handle. Hense the pay! But it is hard work for sure. Not sure about the previous comments about Slam Clack are well rested, most of the slam clanckers are infamous for falling sleep on the flightdeck. so go figure. In this job you sleep when the body calls for it, trying to adjust to the new zone will result in never being able to adjust. But if you feel well on arrival and decide to get a meal and a beer like a normal person, there is nothing wrong with that. But I agree that the lifestyle of racing against the 12 hour mark is NOT recommended, Ive had guys telling the driver to drive faster because they only have 45 minutes left to be able to have a beer. If that is your situation, your problem is not ACMI work, you will take your problem with you to AA or UAL.
The advice about age and the majors is 100% correct. If you have lets say 15 years or more left, the career path and total earnings will be better at the majors, the flying will be boring but you will do better money wise.
Guys, the characterizations that peole that work for these outfits all have spots on their backgrounds is absurd, specially when we all know people with several failures on their past that are now at the majors. When I was a line standards rep with ALPA, I participated in the representation team for many pilots that got hit by the FAA and I know many of them are now at the majors. So pilots with spots on their backgroung are not something exclusive of the ACMI's let's get real for a moment.
This job is NOT for everyone, but it's working for me. I'll turn 60 in 2024 and the thought of flying in and out of DTW or JFK with 3 or 4 sectors a day, sorry but to me that's a well paid regional job. Not interested. You might disagree but that's the way I see it. I was offered what many people would consider the "dream job" as a trainer for a well regarded company. I wasn't willing to move, I came here instead. You don't have to agree with me and maybe that wouldn't have been my choice in my 40's but at 60, was NOT going to drag my wife to another move so I can go join the circus. Enough of that. I live in the Caribbean on a 10th floor with ocean views and a 2 hour drive from a couple of the 10 best beaches on the planet. So National DH's me from home and that works for me.
It might not work for you and you need to research the job and talk to people that works here before you jump. Because if constant schedule changes frustrates you, THIS IS NOT THE JOB FOR YOU. Could it be better? Of course it can!
Don't know if I brought clarity or not. But in the case of the original post of WG vs NAT. NAT would be the choice.
All the best for the new year.
The advice about age and the majors is 100% correct. If you have lets say 15 years or more left, the career path and total earnings will be better at the majors, the flying will be boring but you will do better money wise.
Guys, the characterizations that peole that work for these outfits all have spots on their backgrounds is absurd, specially when we all know people with several failures on their past that are now at the majors. When I was a line standards rep with ALPA, I participated in the representation team for many pilots that got hit by the FAA and I know many of them are now at the majors. So pilots with spots on their backgroung are not something exclusive of the ACMI's let's get real for a moment.
This job is NOT for everyone, but it's working for me. I'll turn 60 in 2024 and the thought of flying in and out of DTW or JFK with 3 or 4 sectors a day, sorry but to me that's a well paid regional job. Not interested. You might disagree but that's the way I see it. I was offered what many people would consider the "dream job" as a trainer for a well regarded company. I wasn't willing to move, I came here instead. You don't have to agree with me and maybe that wouldn't have been my choice in my 40's but at 60, was NOT going to drag my wife to another move so I can go join the circus. Enough of that. I live in the Caribbean on a 10th floor with ocean views and a 2 hour drive from a couple of the 10 best beaches on the planet. So National DH's me from home and that works for me.
It might not work for you and you need to research the job and talk to people that works here before you jump. Because if constant schedule changes frustrates you, THIS IS NOT THE JOB FOR YOU. Could it be better? Of course it can!
Don't know if I brought clarity or not. But in the case of the original post of WG vs NAT. NAT would be the choice.
All the best for the new year.
12-25-2023, 11:48 AM
#20
Line Holder
Joined APC: Apr 2020
Posts: 31
Originally Posted by The Dominican
Hello all & Merry Christmas. National is a better job than Western Global just considering stability. I don't foresee National going away since they have carved a niche for themselves in the ad-hoc market and seem to be getting more flying that they can handle. Hense the pay! But it is hard work for sure. Not sure about the previous comments about Slam Clack are well rested, most of the slam clanckers are infamous for falling sleep on the flightdeck. so go figure. In this job you sleep when the body calls for it, trying to adjust to the new zone will result in never being able to adjust. But if you feel well on arrival and decide to get a meal and a beer like a normal person, there is nothing wrong with that. But I agree that the lifestyle of racing against the 12 hour mark is NOT recommended, Ive had guys telling the driver to drive faster because they only have 45 minutes left to be able to have a beer. If that is your situation, your problem is not ACMI work, you will take your problem with you to AA or UAL.
The advice about age and the majors is 100% correct. If you have lets say 15 years or more left, the career path and total earnings will be better at the majors, the flying will be boring but you will do better money wise.
Guys, the characterizations that peole that work for these outfits all have spots on their backgrounds is absurd, specially when we all know people with several failures on their past that are now at the majors. When I was a line standards rep with ALPA, I participated in the representation team for many pilots that got hit by the FAA and I know many of them are now at the majors. So pilots with spots on their backgroung are not something exclusive of the ACMI's let's get real for a moment.
This job is NOT for everyone, but it's working for me. I'll turn 60 in 2024 and the thought of flying in and out of DTW or JFK with 3 or 4 sectors a day, sorry but to me that's a well paid regional job. Not interested. You might disagree but that's the way I see it. I was offered what many people would consider the "dream job" as a trainer for a well regarded company. I wasn't willing to move, I came here instead. You don't have to agree with me and maybe that wouldn't have been my choice in my 40's but at 60, was NOT going to drag my wife to another move so I can go join the circus. Enough of that. I live in the Caribbean on a 10th floor with ocean views and a 2 hour drive from a couple of the 10 best beaches on the planet. So National DH's me from home and that works for me.
It might not work for you and you need to research the job and talk to people that works here before you jump. Because if constant schedule changes frustrates you, THIS IS NOT THE JOB FOR YOU. Could it be better? Of course it can!
Don't know if I brought clarity or not. But in the case of the original post of WG vs NAT. NAT would be the choice.
All the best for the new year.
The advice about age and the majors is 100% correct. If you have lets say 15 years or more left, the career path and total earnings will be better at the majors, the flying will be boring but you will do better money wise.
Guys, the characterizations that peole that work for these outfits all have spots on their backgrounds is absurd, specially when we all know people with several failures on their past that are now at the majors. When I was a line standards rep with ALPA, I participated in the representation team for many pilots that got hit by the FAA and I know many of them are now at the majors. So pilots with spots on their backgroung are not something exclusive of the ACMI's let's get real for a moment.
This job is NOT for everyone, but it's working for me. I'll turn 60 in 2024 and the thought of flying in and out of DTW or JFK with 3 or 4 sectors a day, sorry but to me that's a well paid regional job. Not interested. You might disagree but that's the way I see it. I was offered what many people would consider the "dream job" as a trainer for a well regarded company. I wasn't willing to move, I came here instead. You don't have to agree with me and maybe that wouldn't have been my choice in my 40's but at 60, was NOT going to drag my wife to another move so I can go join the circus. Enough of that. I live in the Caribbean on a 10th floor with ocean views and a 2 hour drive from a couple of the 10 best beaches on the planet. So National DH's me from home and that works for me.
It might not work for you and you need to research the job and talk to people that works here before you jump. Because if constant schedule changes frustrates you, THIS IS NOT THE JOB FOR YOU. Could it be better? Of course it can!
Don't know if I brought clarity or not. But in the case of the original post of WG vs NAT. NAT would be the choice.
All the best for the new year.
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